Question:

Tarak Bhatt wrote: > Hi, > I want to know Is there  any alternative medicine to cure kidney diseases ? > Thanks > T.Bhatt

No there isn’t any CURES, but there IS some complimentary medicines that can cut down on symptoms of various things that come with kidney disease. One of my PD nurses just mentioned to me the other day that he remembers hearing a nephrologist speak at a conference of PD nurses about alternative medicine and nephrology, and that he is one of the few out there that practices it. He’s supposed to get me the doctor’s name and information. When I get that info, I’ll pass it along. — ~LadySycamore~ "Your ‘right’ doesn’t make me ‘wrong’" Mr. T.Jones "Just because you CAN, doesn’t mean you SHOULD." re-87 Co-Administrator of ~dialyze.org~ By renal patients, FOR renal patients! http://dialyze.org/forums/index.php

Response:

> I want to know Is there  any alternative medicine to cure kidney diseases

? If there were, we would all certainly have opted for it rather than dialysis or transplant.

Response:

Hi, I want to know Is there  any alternative medicine to cure kidney diseases ? Thanks T.Bhatt

Response:

In article <bs9j5l$b4l1…@ID-195807.news.uni-berlin.de>, Tarak Bhatt <tk_bh…@hotmail.com> wrote: >Hi, >I want to know Is there  any alternative medicine to cure kidney diseases ?

I don’t think so — a friend of mine is a practitioner of Chinese medicine, and when we explained our doctor’s condition to her, she said we should just use regular Western medicine. — chuk

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Question:

Kate posted this on Catslaves. We are sending many purrs for Meg to recover soon and completely.

<SNIP — Adrian "The Cat. He walked by himself, and all places were alike to him."

Response:

Here is Kate’s update from Catslaves: The vet has just called me to let me know the blood test results. Meg’s kidney levels are all back to normal, and she’s going to be okay.

I’m soooooo glad. I hope the ulcers heal fast. Suz Iron Chef Macmoosette Thank Heavens There’s Only One =^..^=   =^..^=   =^..^=   =^..^=  =^..^=  =^..^= Chocolate heals all wounds.                  

Response:

So, please can everyone purr and pray for her that the kidney levels are down when they do the tests tomorrow,

  Many purrs are on their way.  We hope the tests show good results and that Meg is on her way to a quick recovery.  Purrs for Kate as well.   Jeanne

Response:

Here is Kate’s update from Catslaves: The vet has just called me to let me know the blood test results. Meg’s kidney levels are all back to normal, and she’s going to be okay. She will have to stay in hospital until the ulcers go, and she is eating and drinking okay.  Now they are sure her kidneys are okay they are going to start giving her pain relief so she should start eating soon. She comes off the drip later today. I’m so relieved.  I am torn between wanting to cry with happiness and run round the office whooping for joy :-) Thank you to everyone for the purrs, meatloafing and prayers – they’ve worked so well. Kate (a very happy meowmie)

Response:

Poor Meg. We are going to purr and pray that she recovers fully. Has anybody else had an experience like this? That the precursor of having kidney disease is gums and sores in the mouth? That seems strange. Anyway, we send all our love and hugs for both you (Kate) and Meg. Jazz & his mama — Irulan from the stars we came, to the stars we return from now until the end of time

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Kate posted this on Catslaves. We are sending many purrs for Meg to recover soon and completely. I have been unable to post to r.p.c.a. through google today, so please could someone pass on my request to the group.  I will try to login via my ISPs news server tonight, but we could do with the purrs asap. Meg, our 6 year old ginger female, is currently in the local animal hospital. Thursday last week, she started throwing up froth.  At first we thought she’d just been eating grass, and assumed it would sort itself out. Friday she appeared to be back to her normal self, eating and drinking as normal and no more throwing up. Overnight on Friday she was ill again, and when we got up on Saturday morning she was sat hunched up looking miserable at her waterbowl. So we took her along to the vet as soon as they opened on the Saturday morning.  The vet checked her over, no temperature, so he thought it was probably a blade of grass stuck in her throat, and recommended that she go to the hospital for an anaesthetic and they would check it. Saturday afternoon, we picked her up from the hospital following the anaesthetic.  They hadn’t found anything, so they prescribed her some bland diet, and told us to monitor how she went. She was fairly groggy, and was dribbling a little bit, but we thought this was due to the anaesthetic.  She didn’t eat anything that evening, but we’d been told she probably wouldn’t for 24hrs after the anaesthetic so we didn’t worry. On Sunday, she started to have problems drinking – she didn’t seem able to lap from her bowl, but she could drink if we ran the tap.  We thought perhaps her throat was a bit sore from the air tube during the anaesthetic.  Other than that she was okay in herself, running around and purring when stroked.  She still wasn’t eating, but we thought that too might be throat related. By Monday (yesterday) it was obvious she wasn’t well.  She was sitting in the sink desperately wanting water, but now not even able to drink it from the flowing tap.  She had also develped very bad breath. We took her back to the vet, and they examined her again.  Her temperature was still normal.  But, when they checked her mouth, they discovered she had ulcers on her gums and tongue. She was admitted to the animal hospital, and put on a drip, given antibiotics for the ulcers and they did blood tests. The vet phoned later on Monday to say that they had the blood test results, and that it looks like she has kidney disease. Because she is a young cat, they are going to redo the tests when she is fully re-hydrated, as that may have affected the result. I’ve spoken to the hospital today, and she is okay in herself, alert and interested in what is going on around her.  She is still on a drip, and they are feeding her via syringe while she still has the ulcers. They are redoing the blood tests tomorrow.  So, please can everyone purr and pray for her that the kidney levels are down when they do the tests tomorrow, and that it doesn’t turn out to be kidney disease.  She’s only 6, so seems too young. Thanks, Kate. — Marina, Frank and Nikki marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi

Response:

Purrs for this to be just a fluke and that she recovers swiftly! — Victor M. Martinez http://www.che.utexas.edu/~martiv

Response:

Purrs enroute – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Kate posted this on Catslaves. We are sending many purrs for Meg to recover soon and completely. I have been unable to post to r.p.c.a. through google today, so please could someone pass on my request to the group.  I will try to login via my ISPs news server tonight, but we could do with the purrs asap. Meg, our 6 year old ginger female, is currently in the local animal hospital. Thursday last week, she started throwing up froth.  At first we thought she’d just been eating grass, and assumed it would sort itself out. Friday she appeared to be back to her normal self, eating and drinking as normal and no more throwing up. Overnight on Friday she was ill again, and when we got up on Saturday morning she was sat hunched up looking miserable at her waterbowl. So we took her along to the vet as soon as they opened on the Saturday morning.  The vet checked her over, no temperature, so he thought it was probably a blade of grass stuck in her throat, and recommended that she go to the hospital for an anaesthetic and they would check it. Saturday afternoon, we picked her up from the hospital following the anaesthetic.  They hadn’t found anything, so they prescribed her some bland diet, and told us to monitor how she went. She was fairly groggy, and was dribbling a little bit, but we thought this was due to the anaesthetic.  She didn’t eat anything that evening, but we’d been told she probably wouldn’t for 24hrs after the anaesthetic so we didn’t worry. On Sunday, she started to have problems drinking – she didn’t seem able to lap from her bowl, but she could drink if we ran the tap.  We thought perhaps her throat was a bit sore from the air tube during the anaesthetic.  Other than that she was okay in herself, running around and purring when stroked.  She still wasn’t eating, but we thought that too might be throat related. By Monday (yesterday) it was obvious she wasn’t well.  She was sitting in the sink desperately wanting water, but now not even able to drink it from the flowing tap.  She had also develped very bad breath. We took her back to the vet, and they examined her again.  Her temperature was still normal.  But, when they checked her mouth, they discovered she had ulcers on her gums and tongue. She was admitted to the animal hospital, and put on a drip, given antibiotics for the ulcers and they did blood tests. The vet phoned later on Monday to say that they had the blood test results, and that it looks like she has kidney disease. Because she is a young cat, they are going to redo the tests when she is fully re-hydrated, as that may have affected the result. I’ve spoken to the hospital today, and she is okay in herself, alert and interested in what is going on around her.  She is still on a drip, and they are feeding her via syringe while she still has the ulcers. They are redoing the blood tests tomorrow.  So, please can everyone purr and pray for her that the kidney levels are down when they do the tests tomorrow, and that it doesn’t turn out to be kidney disease.  She’s only 6, so seems too young. Thanks, Kate.

Response:

I’m sorry to have missed reading this earlier!  Please accept our belated purrs for Meg’s continued quick recovery! Christine

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here is Kate’s update from Catslaves: The vet has just called me to let me know the blood test results. Meg’s kidney levels are all back to normal, and she’s going to be okay. She will have to stay in hospital until the ulcers go, and she is eating and drinking okay.  Now they are sure her kidneys are okay they are going to start giving her pain relief so she should start eating soon. She comes off the drip later today. I’m so relieved.  I am torn between wanting to cry with happiness and run round the office whooping for joy :-) Thank you to everyone for the purrs, meatloafing and prayers – they’ve worked so well. Kate (a very happy meowmie)

Response:

Kate posted this on Catslaves. We are sending many purrs for Meg to recover soon and completely. I have been unable to post to r.p.c.a. through google today, so please could someone pass on my request to the group.  I will try to login via my ISPs news server tonight, but we could do with the purrs asap. Meg, our 6 year old ginger female, is currently in the local animal hospital.

<snipped Healing purrs for Meg and for her V*ts to find a treatable root cause. Sam

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YAY!!! I knew all the purring worked!!! Angela and Gizmo

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here is Kate’s update from Catslaves: The vet has just called me to let me know the blood test results. Meg’s kidney levels are all back to normal, and she’s going to be okay. She will have to stay in hospital until the ulcers go, and she is eating and drinking okay.  Now they are sure her kidneys are okay they are going to start giving her pain relief so she should start eating soon. She comes off the drip later today. I’m so relieved.  I am torn between wanting to cry with happiness and run round the office whooping for joy :-) Thank you to everyone for the purrs, meatloafing and prayers – they’ve worked so well. Kate (a very happy meowmie)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here is Kate’s update from Catslaves: The vet has just called me to let me know the blood test results. Meg’s kidney levels are all back to normal, and she’s going to be okay. She will have to stay in hospital until the ulcers go, and she is eating and drinking okay.  Now they are sure her kidneys are okay they are going to start giving her pain relief so she should start eating soon. She comes off the drip later today. I’m so relieved.  I am torn between wanting to cry with happiness and run round the office whooping for joy :-) Thank you to everyone for the purrs, meatloafing and prayers – they’ve worked so well. Kate (a very happy meowmie)

I read this update before the purr request itself – I am so glad to know that Meg is getting better.  We will be sending lots of full-recovery purrs and hoping that she is back to her normal self again pronto. —— Krista

Response:

Kate, or Marina If you are taking the answers for Kate,I thought of kidney  disease as I read the symptoms, because my best furfriend ever died of that but was older by 7yrs than Meg so hopefully meg will stand a better chance of recovery if that is what it is,Maybe it’s not, anyway Wilson and I [ my present furfriend ] send our strongest Purrs and hopes for Megs quick recovery our thoughts are with you regards  jp.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Kate posted this on Catslaves. We are sending many purrs for Meg to recover soon and completely. I have been unable to post to r.p.c.a. through google today, so please could someone pass on my request to the group.  I will try to login via my ISPs news server tonight, but we could do with the purrs asap. Meg, our 6 year old ginger female, is currently in the local animal hospital. Thursday last week, she started throwing up froth.  At first we thought she’d just been eating grass, and assumed it would sort itself out. Friday she appeared to be back to her normal self, eating and drinking as normal and no more throwing up. Overnight on Friday she was ill again, and when we got up on Saturday morning she was sat hunched up looking miserable at her waterbowl. So we took her along to the vet as soon as they opened on the Saturday morning.  The vet checked her over, no temperature, so he thought it was probably a blade of grass stuck in her throat, and recommended that she go to the hospital for an anaesthetic and they would check it. Saturday afternoon, we picked her up from the hospital following the anaesthetic.  They hadn’t found anything, so they prescribed her some bland diet, and told us to monitor how she went. She was fairly groggy, and was dribbling a little bit, but we thought this was due to the anaesthetic.  She didn’t eat anything that evening, but we’d been told she probably wouldn’t for 24hrs after the anaesthetic so we didn’t worry. On Sunday, she started to have problems drinking – she didn’t seem able to lap from her bowl, but she could drink if we ran the tap.  We thought perhaps her throat was a bit sore from the air tube during the anaesthetic.  Other than that she was okay in herself, running around and purring when stroked.  She still wasn’t eating, but we thought that too might be throat related. By Monday (yesterday) it was obvious she wasn’t well.  She was sitting in the sink desperately wanting water, but now not even able to drink it from the flowing tap.  She had also develped very bad breath. We took her back to the vet, and they examined her again.  Her temperature was still normal.  But, when they checked her mouth, they discovered she had ulcers on her gums and tongue. She was admitted to the animal hospital, and put on a drip, given antibiotics for the ulcers and they did blood tests. The vet phoned later on Monday to say that they had the blood test results, and that it looks like she has kidney disease. Because she is a young cat, they are going to redo the tests when she is fully re-hydrated, as that may have affected the result. I’ve spoken to the hospital today, and she is okay in herself, alert and interested in what is going on around her.  She is still on a drip, and they are feeding her via syringe while she still has the ulcers. They are redoing the blood tests tomorrow.  So, please can everyone purr and pray for her that the kidney levels are down when they do the tests tomorrow, and that it doesn’t turn out to be kidney disease.  She’s only 6, so seems too young. Thanks, Kate. — Marina, Frank and Nikki marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Kate posted this on Catslaves. We are sending many purrs for Meg to recover soon and completely. I have been unable to post to r.p.c.a. through google today, so please could someone pass on my request to the group.  I will try to login via my ISPs news server tonight, but we could do with the purrs asap. Meg, our 6 year old ginger female, is currently in the local animal hospital. Thursday last week, she started throwing up froth.  At first we thought she’d just been eating grass, and assumed it would sort itself out. Friday she appeared to be back to her normal self, eating and drinking as normal and no more throwing up. Overnight on Friday she was ill again, and when we got up on Saturday morning she was sat hunched up looking miserable at her waterbowl. So we took her along to the vet as soon as they opened on the Saturday morning.  The vet checked her over, no temperature, so he thought it was probably a blade of grass stuck in her throat, and recommended that she go to the hospital for an anaesthetic and they would check it. Saturday afternoon, we picked her up from the hospital following the anaesthetic.  They hadn’t found anything, so they prescribed her some bland diet, and told us to monitor how she went. She was fairly groggy, and was dribbling a little bit, but we thought this was due to the anaesthetic.  She didn’t eat anything that evening, but we’d been told she probably wouldn’t for 24hrs after the anaesthetic so we didn’t worry. On Sunday, she started to have problems drinking – she didn’t seem able to lap from her bowl, but she could drink if we ran the tap.  We thought perhaps her throat was a bit sore from the air tube during the anaesthetic.  Other than that she was okay in herself, running around and purring when stroked.  She still wasn’t eating, but we thought that too might be throat related. By Monday (yesterday) it was obvious she wasn’t well.  She was sitting in the sink desperately wanting water, but now not even able to drink it from the flowing tap.  She had also develped very bad breath. We took her back to the vet, and they examined her again.  Her temperature was still normal.  But, when they checked her mouth, they discovered she had ulcers on her gums and tongue. She was admitted to the animal hospital, and put on a drip, given antibiotics for the ulcers and they did blood tests. The vet phoned later on Monday to say that they had the blood test results, and that it looks like she has kidney disease. Because she is a young cat, they are going to redo the tests when she is fully re-hydrated, as that may have affected the result. I’ve spoken to the hospital today, and she is okay in herself, alert and interested in what is going on around her.  She is still on a drip, and they are feeding her via syringe while she still has the ulcers. They are redoing the blood tests tomorrow.  So, please can everyone purr and pray for her that the kidney levels are down when they do the tests tomorrow, and that it doesn’t turn out to be kidney disease.  She’s only 6, so seems too young. Thanks, Kate.

Purrring like mad here.. Has your vet considered calicivirus as the possible cause?  Mouth ulcers are the distinguishing aspect of calici infection Kristy — "As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." – Arthur Carlson

Response:

Glad to hear this – I realy should learn to scrool down and look for updates ;-) Could it be that Meg ate/chewed something? After the first purr request I came across the question about what plants are safe to plant, and got to wondering.

That crossed my mind, too. A small amount of some toxin might affect the kidneys temporarily. — Marina

Response:

They are redoing the blood tests tomorrow.  So, please can everyone purr and pray for her that the kidney levels are down when they do the tests tomorrow, and that it doesn’t turn out to be kidney disease.  She’s only 6, so seems too young. Thanks, Kate.

Healing and soothing thoughts and purrs for Meg and Kate from us out here in the back forty.  Please keep us informed about Meg and how she is doing. Pam, Rob, and the NC nine

Response:

Glad to hear this – I realy should learn to scrool down and look for updates ;-) Could it be that Meg ate/chewed something? After the first purr request I came across the question about what plants are safe to plant, and got to wondering.

Berfert started foaming at the mouth and had trouble eating for a couple of days after sampling a bit of aloe plant.  I have resorted to topical burn creams rather than risk aloe burns again. Pam S.

Response:

They are redoing the blood tests tomorrow.  So, please can everyone purr and pray for her that the kidney levels are down when they do the tests tomorrow, and that it doesn’t turn out to be kidney disease.  She’s only 6, so seems too young. Thanks, Kate.

Purrs that the tests come out ok. I’m the kidney problem is temporary. Suz Iron Chef Macmoosette Thank Heavens There’s Only One =^..^=   =^..^=   =^..^=   =^..^=  =^..^=  =^..^= Chocolate heals all wounds.                  

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Kate posted this on Catslaves. We are sending many purrs for Meg to recover soon and completely. I have been unable to post to r.p.c.a. through google today, so please could someone pass on my request to the group.  I will try to login via my ISPs news server tonight, but we could do with the purrs asap. Meg, our 6 year old ginger female, is currently in the local animal hospital. Thursday last week, she started throwing up froth.  At first we thought she’d just been eating grass, and assumed it would sort itself out. Friday she appeared to be back to her normal self, eating and drinking as normal and no more throwing up. Overnight on Friday she was ill again, and when we got up on Saturday morning she was sat hunched up looking miserable at her waterbowl. So we took her along to the vet as soon as they opened on the Saturday morning.  The vet checked her over, no temperature, so he thought it was probably a blade of grass stuck in her throat, and recommended that she go to the hospital for an anaesthetic and they would check it. Saturday afternoon, we picked her up from the hospital following the anaesthetic.  They hadn’t found anything, so they prescribed her some bland diet, and told us to monitor how she went. She was fairly groggy, and was dribbling a little bit, but we thought this was due to the anaesthetic.  She didn’t eat anything that evening, but we’d been told she probably wouldn’t for 24hrs after the anaesthetic so we didn’t worry. On Sunday, she started to have problems drinking – she didn’t seem able to lap from her bowl, but she could drink if we ran the tap.  We thought perhaps her throat was a bit sore from the air tube during the anaesthetic.  Other than that she was okay in herself, running around and purring when stroked.  She still wasn’t eating, but we thought that too might be throat related. By Monday (yesterday) it was obvious she wasn’t well.  She was sitting in the sink desperately wanting water, but now not even able to drink it from the flowing tap.  She had also develped very bad breath. We took her back to the vet, and they examined her again.  Her temperature was still normal.  But, when they checked her mouth, they discovered she had ulcers on her gums and tongue. She was admitted to the animal hospital, and put on a drip, given antibiotics for the ulcers and they did blood tests. The vet phoned later on Monday to say that they had the blood test results, and that it looks like she has kidney disease. Because she is a young cat, they are going to redo the tests when she is fully re-hydrated, as that may have affected the result. I’ve spoken to the hospital today, and she is okay in herself, alert and interested in what is going on around her.  She is still on a drip, and they are feeding her via syringe while she still has the ulcers. They are redoing the blood tests tomorrow.  So, please can everyone purr and pray for her that the kidney levels are down when they do the tests tomorrow, and that it doesn’t turn out to be kidney disease.  She’s only 6, so seems too young. Thanks, Kate. — Marina, Frank and Nikki marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi

Purrs going out to Kate and Meg.  I hope the levels have dropped. Even if not, please tell her kidney disease cats can live quite a good long while with this disease with good care, so it is not completely hopeless. Ginger-lyn

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here is Kate’s update from Catslaves: The vet has just called me to let me know the blood test results. Meg’s kidney levels are all back to normal, and she’s going to be okay. She will have to stay in hospital until the ulcers go, and she is eating and drinking okay.  Now they are sure her kidneys are okay they are going to start giving her pain relief so she should start eating soon. She comes off the drip later today. I’m so relieved.  I am torn between wanting to cry with happiness and run round the office whooping for joy :-) Thank you to everyone for the purrs, meatloafing and prayers – they’ve worked so well. Kate (a very happy meowmie)

Glad to hear this – I realy should learn to scrool down and look for updates ;-) Could it be that Meg ate/chewed something? After the first purr request I came across the question about what plants are safe to plant, and got to wondering.

Response:

Purrs for Meg and her carers…..fingers crossed that the second blood test shows better news Angela and Gizmo

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Kate posted this on Catslaves. We are sending many purrs for Meg to recover soon and completely. I have been unable to post to r.p.c.a. through google today, so please could someone pass on my request to the group.  I will try to login via my ISPs news server tonight, but we could do with the purrs asap. Meg, our 6 year old ginger female, is currently in the local animal hospital. Thursday last week, she started throwing up froth.  At first we thought she’d just been eating grass, and assumed it would sort itself out. Friday she appeared to be back to her normal self, eating and drinking as normal and no more throwing up. Overnight on Friday she was ill again, and when we got up on Saturday morning she was sat hunched up looking miserable at her waterbowl. So we took her along to the vet as soon as they opened on the Saturday morning.  The vet checked her over, no temperature, so he thought it was probably a blade of grass stuck in her throat, and recommended that she go to the hospital for an anaesthetic and they would check it. Saturday afternoon, we picked her up from the hospital following the anaesthetic.  They hadn’t found anything, so they prescribed her some bland diet, and told us to monitor how she went. She was fairly groggy, and was dribbling a little bit, but we thought this was due to the anaesthetic.  She didn’t eat anything that evening, but we’d been told she probably wouldn’t for 24hrs after the anaesthetic so we didn’t worry. On Sunday, she started to have problems drinking – she didn’t seem able to lap from her bowl, but she could drink if we ran the tap.  We thought perhaps her throat was a bit sore from the air tube during the anaesthetic.  Other than that she was okay in herself, running around and purring when stroked.  She still wasn’t eating, but we thought that too might be throat related. By Monday (yesterday) it was obvious she wasn’t well.  She was sitting in the sink desperately wanting water, but now not even able to drink it from the flowing tap.  She had also develped very bad breath. We took her back to the vet, and they examined her again.  Her temperature was still normal.  But, when they checked her mouth, they discovered she had ulcers on her gums and tongue. She was admitted to the animal hospital, and put on a drip, given antibiotics for the ulcers and they did blood tests. The vet phoned later on Monday to say that they had the blood test results, and that it looks like she has kidney disease. Because she is a young cat, they are going to redo the tests when she is fully re-hydrated, as that may have affected the result. I’ve spoken to the hospital today, and she is okay in herself, alert and interested in what is going on around her.  She is still on a drip, and they are feeding her via syringe while she still has the ulcers. They are redoing the blood tests tomorrow.  So, please can everyone purr and pray for her that the kidney levels are down when they do the tests tomorrow, and that it doesn’t turn out to be kidney disease.  She’s only 6, so seems too young. Thanks, Kate. — Marina, Frank and Nikki marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi

Response:

Purrs and prayers on their way. — Joy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Kate posted this on Catslaves. We are sending many purrs for Meg to recover soon and completely. I have been unable to post to r.p.c.a. through google today, so please could someone pass on my request to the group.  I will try to login via my ISPs news server tonight, but we could do with the purrs asap. Meg, our 6 year old ginger female, is currently in the local animal hospital. Thursday last week, she started throwing up froth.  At first we thought she’d just been eating grass, and assumed it would sort itself out. Friday she appeared to be back to her normal self, eating and drinking as normal and no more throwing up. Overnight on Friday she was ill again, and when we got up on Saturday morning she was sat hunched up looking miserable at her waterbowl. So we took her along to the vet as soon as they opened on the Saturday morning.  The vet checked her over, no temperature, so he thought it was probably a blade of grass stuck in her throat, and recommended that she go to the hospital for an anaesthetic and they would check it. Saturday afternoon, we picked her up from the hospital following the anaesthetic.  They hadn’t found anything, so they prescribed her some bland diet, and told us to monitor how she went. She was fairly groggy, and was dribbling a little bit, but we thought this was due to the anaesthetic.  She didn’t eat anything that evening, but we’d been told she probably wouldn’t for 24hrs after the anaesthetic so we didn’t worry. On Sunday, she started to have problems drinking – she didn’t seem able to lap from her bowl, but she could drink if we ran the tap.  We thought perhaps her throat was a bit sore from the air tube during the anaesthetic.  Other than that she was okay in herself, running around and purring when stroked.  She still wasn’t eating, but we thought that too might be throat related. By Monday (yesterday) it was obvious she wasn’t well.  She was sitting in the sink desperately wanting water, but now not even able to drink it from the flowing tap.  She had also develped very bad breath. We took her back to the vet, and they examined her again.  Her temperature was still normal.  But, when they checked her mouth, they discovered she had ulcers on her gums and tongue. She was admitted to the animal hospital, and put on a drip, given antibiotics for the ulcers and they did blood tests. The vet phoned later on Monday to say that they had the blood test results, and that it looks like she has kidney disease. Because she is a young cat, they are going to redo the tests when she is fully re-hydrated, as that may have affected the result. I’ve spoken to the hospital today, and she is okay in herself, alert and interested in what is going on around her.  She is still on a drip, and they are feeding her via syringe while she still has the ulcers. They are redoing the blood tests tomorrow.  So, please can everyone purr and pray for her that the kidney levels are down when they do the tests tomorrow, and that it doesn’t turn out to be kidney disease.  She’s only 6, so seems too young. Thanks, Kate. — Marina, Frank and Nikki marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi

Response:

Kate posted this on Catslaves. We are sending many purrs for Meg to recover soon and completely.

I have been unable to post to r.p.c.a. through google today, so please could someone pass on my request to the group.  I will try to login via my ISPs news server tonight, but we could do with the purrs asap. Meg, our 6 year old ginger female, is currently in the local animal hospital. Thursday last week, she started throwing up froth.  At first we thought she’d just been eating grass, and assumed it would sort itself out. Friday she appeared to be back to her normal self, eating and drinking as normal and no more throwing up. Overnight on Friday she was ill again, and when we got up on Saturday morning she was sat hunched up looking miserable at her waterbowl. So we took her along to the vet as soon as they opened on the Saturday morning.  The vet checked her over, no temperature, so he thought it was probably a blade of grass stuck in her throat, and recommended that she go to the hospital for an anaesthetic and they would check it. Saturday afternoon, we picked her up from the hospital following the anaesthetic.  They hadn’t found anything, so they prescribed her some bland diet, and told us to monitor how she went. She was fairly groggy, and was dribbling a little bit, but we thought this was due to the anaesthetic.  She didn’t eat anything that evening, but we’d been told she probably wouldn’t for 24hrs after the anaesthetic so we didn’t worry. On Sunday, she started to have problems drinking – she didn’t seem able to lap from her bowl, but she could drink if we ran the tap.  We thought perhaps her throat was a bit sore from the air tube during the anaesthetic.  Other than that she was okay in herself, running around and purring when stroked.  She still wasn’t eating, but we thought that too might be throat related. By Monday (yesterday) it was obvious she wasn’t well.  She was sitting in the sink desperately wanting water, but now not even able to drink it from the flowing tap.  She had also develped very bad breath. We took her back to the vet, and they examined her again.  Her temperature was still normal.  But, when they checked her mouth, they discovered she had ulcers on her gums and tongue. She was admitted to the animal hospital, and put on a drip, given antibiotics for the ulcers and they did blood tests. The vet phoned later on Monday to say that they had the blood test results, and that it looks like she has kidney disease. Because she is a young cat, they are going to redo the tests when she is fully re-hydrated, as that may have affected the result. I’ve spoken to the hospital today, and she is okay in herself, alert and interested in what is going on around her.  She is still on a drip, and they are feeding her via syringe while she still has the ulcers. They are redoing the blood tests tomorrow.  So, please can everyone purr and pray for her that the kidney levels are down when they do the tests tomorrow, and that it doesn’t turn out to be kidney disease.  She’s only 6, so seems too young. Thanks, Kate. — Marina, Frank and Nikki marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi

Response:

Purrs and meatloaf meditations beaming up for Meg from here for her quick recovery.

: Kate posted this on Catslaves. We are sending many purrs for Meg to recover : soon and completely. :

: I have been unable to post to r.p.c.a. through google today, so : please could someone pass on my request to the group.  I will try to : login via my ISPs news server tonight, but we could do with the purrs : asap. : : Meg, our 6 year old ginger female, is currently in the local animal : hospital. : : Thursday last week, she started throwing up froth.  At first we : thought she’d just been eating grass, and assumed it would sort : itself out. : : Friday she appeared to be back to her normal self, eating and : drinking as normal and no more throwing up. : : Overnight on Friday she was ill again, and when we got up on Saturday : morning she was sat hunched up looking miserable at her waterbowl. : So we took her along to the vet as soon as they opened on the : Saturday morning.  The vet checked her over, no temperature, so he : thought it was probably a blade of grass stuck in her throat, and : recommended that she go to the hospital for an anaesthetic and they : would check it. : : Saturday afternoon, we picked her up from the hospital following the : anaesthetic.  They hadn’t found anything, so they prescribed her some : bland diet, and told us to monitor how she went. : : She was fairly groggy, and was dribbling a little bit, but we thought : this was due to the anaesthetic.  She didn’t eat anything that : evening, but we’d been told she probably wouldn’t for 24hrs after the : anaesthetic so we didn’t worry. : : On Sunday, she started to have problems drinking – she didn’t seem : able to lap from her bowl, but she could drink if we ran the tap.  We : thought perhaps her throat was a bit sore from the air tube during : the anaesthetic.  Other than that she was okay in herself, running : around and purring when stroked.  She still wasn’t eating, but we : thought that too might be throat related. : : By Monday (yesterday) it was obvious she wasn’t well.  She was : sitting in the sink desperately wanting water, but now not even able : to drink it from the flowing tap.  She had also develped very bad : breath. : : We took her back to the vet, and they examined her again.  Her : temperature was still normal.  But, when they checked her mouth, they : discovered she had ulcers on her gums and tongue. : : She was admitted to the animal hospital, and put on a drip, given : antibiotics for the ulcers and they did blood tests. : : The vet phoned later on Monday to say that they had the blood test : results, and that it looks like she has kidney disease. : : Because she is a young cat, they are going to redo the tests when she : is fully re-hydrated, as that may have affected the result. : : I’ve spoken to the hospital today, and she is okay in herself, alert : and interested in what is going on around her.  She is still on a : drip, and they are feeding her via syringe while she still has the : ulcers. : : They are redoing the blood tests tomorrow.  So, please can everyone : purr and pray for her that the kidney levels are down when they do : the tests tomorrow, and that it doesn’t turn out to be kidney : disease.  She’s only 6, so seems too young. : : Thanks, : Kate. : : — : Marina, Frank and Nikki : marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi :

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Question:

                          www.energy-efficiency-diet.com                You cannot afford to risk your health a day longer.    Take control of your life and get our FREE weight profile right now. 1. Heart Disease and Stroke Heart Disease and Stroke are the leading causes of death and disability for both men and women in the United States. Overweight people are more likely to have high blood pressure, a major risk factor for heart disease and stroke, than people who are not overweight. Very high blood levels of cholesterol and triglycerides (blood fats) can also lead to heart disease and often are linked to being overweight. Being overweight also contributes to angina (chest pain caused by decreased oxygen to the heart) and sudden death from heart disease or stroke without any signs or symptoms. 2. Diabetes Noninsulin-dependent diabetes mellitus (type 2 diabetes) is the most common type of diabetes in the United States. Type 2 diabetes reduces your body’s ability to control your blood sugar. It is a major cause of early death, heart disease, kidney disease, stroke, and blindness. Overweight people are twice as likely to develop type-2 diabetes as people who are not overweight. You can reduce your risk of developing this type of diabetes by losing weight and by increasing your physical activity. 3. Cancer Several types of cancer are associated with being overweight. In women, these include cancer of the uterus, gallbladder, cervix, ovary, breast, and colon. Overweight men are at greater risk for developing cancer of the colon, rectum, and prostate. 4. Sleep Apnea Sleep apnea is a serious condition that is closely associated with being overweight. Sleep apnea can cause a person to stop breathing for short periods during sleep and to snore heavily. Sleep apnea may cause daytime sleepiness and even heart failure. The risk for sleep apnea increases with higher body weights. Weight loss usually improves sleep apnea. 5. Osteoarthritis Osteoarthritis is a common joint disorder that most often affects the joints in your knees, hips, and lower back. Extra weight appears to increase the risk of osteoarthritis by placing extra pressure on these joints and wearing away the cartilage (tissue that cushions the joints) that normally protects them. Weight loss can decrease stress on the knees, hips, and lower back and may improve the symptoms of osteoarthritis. 6. Gout Gout is a joint disease caused by high levels of uric acid in the blood. Uric acid sometimes forms into solid stone or crystal masses that become deposited in the joints. Gout is more common in overweight people and the risk of developing the disorder increases with higher body weights. 7. Gallbladder disease Gallbladder disease and gallstones are more common if you are overweight. Your risk of disease increases as your weight increases.       Visit http://www.energy-efficiency-diet.com   and get your free weight loss profile today!

Response:

www.energy-efficiency-diet.com                You cannot afford to risk your health a day longer.    Take control of your life and get our FREE weight profile right now.

Fuck off and die, Spammer…..

Response:

Tom wrote … Fuck off and die, Spammer…..

Now Tom, don’t hold back, tell us how you *really* feel :o ) Rachel (New Zealand)

Response:

 Actually a much better site to visit is the Atkins Center.  You can start today for FREE. atkins phase 1 Induction http://atkinscenter.com/howto/phase1.html atkins getting started http://atkinscenter.com/Archive/2001/12/15-238691.html JimL – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                          www.energy-efficiency-diet.com               You cannot afford to risk your health a day longer.   Take control of your life and get our FREE weight profile right now. 1. Heart Disease and Stroke Heart Disease and Stroke are the leading causes of death and disability for both men and women in the United States. Overweight people are more likely to have high blood pressure, a major risk factor for heart disease and stroke, than people who are not overweight. Very high blood levels of cholesterol and triglycerides (blood fats) can also lead to heart disease and often are linked to being overweight. Being overweight also contributes to angina (chest pain caused by decreased oxygen to the heart) and sudden death from heart disease or stroke without any signs or symptoms. 2. Diabetes Noninsulin-dependent diabetes mellitus (type 2 diabetes) is the most common type of diabetes in the United States. Type 2 diabetes reduces your body’s ability to control your blood sugar. It is a major cause of early death, heart disease, kidney disease, stroke, and blindness. Overweight people are twice as likely to develop type-2 diabetes as people who are not overweight. You can reduce your risk of developing this type of diabetes by losing weight and by increasing your physical activity. 3. Cancer Several types of cancer are associated with being overweight. In women, these include cancer of the uterus, gallbladder, cervix, ovary, breast, and colon. Overweight men are at greater risk for developing cancer of the colon, rectum, and prostate. 4. Sleep Apnea Sleep apnea is a serious condition that is closely associated with being overweight. Sleep apnea can cause a person to stop breathing for short periods during sleep and to snore heavily. Sleep apnea may cause daytime sleepiness and even heart failure. The risk for sleep apnea increases with higher body weights. Weight loss usually improves sleep apnea. 5. Osteoarthritis Osteoarthritis is a common joint disorder that most often affects the joints in your knees, hips, and lower back. Extra weight appears to increase the risk of osteoarthritis by placing extra pressure on these joints and wearing away the cartilage (tissue that cushions the joints) that normally protects them. Weight loss can decrease stress on the knees, hips, and lower back and may improve the symptoms of osteoarthritis. 6. Gout Gout is a joint disease caused by high levels of uric acid in the blood. Uric acid sometimes forms into solid stone or crystal masses that become deposited in the joints. Gout is more common in overweight people and the risk of developing the disorder increases with higher body weights. 7. Gallbladder disease Gallbladder disease and gallstones are more common if you are overweight. Your risk of disease increases as your weight increases.   Visit http://www.energy-efficiency-diet.com   and get your free weight loss profile today!

Response:

Question:

ditto!!!! Sherry back in CA "Beverley" <pottings…@sybercom.net> wrote in message

news:uecjs0t992jd2a@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> What a terrific post!!! > Bev > "J" <jwoot…@execulink.com> wrote in message > news:3CE628BD.FD709A7C@execulink.com… > > Hi :-) > > Since Lupus is a connective tissue disease and KCat said ….. > > "Connective tissue is found in every part of the body – every part. there > is > > less in the spine area between the sacrum and the cervical vertebrae – but > it’s > > still there. > > therefore – in my typical long-winded way – i’m saying that there is > probably > > not a single part of the body that can’t be affected by "connective tissue > > disease".<end KCat wisdom> > > Do you have Sj

Question:

My wife is type-1 diabetic.  For about three weeks she’s had a much harder time keeping her blood sugars under control, and has had general pain all over her torso and excessive fatigue.  She had an unusually long period (35 days), so we thought it may have had something to do with that, but a nurse suggested it may be kidney probelms. Are these symptoms familiar to anyone?  I admit, they’re vague, but any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Mike Stay

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My wife is type-1 diabetic.  For about three weeks she’s had a much harder time keeping her blood sugars under control, and has had general pain all over her torso and excessive fatigue.  She had an unusually long period (35 days), so we thought it may have had something to do with that, but a nurse suggested it may be kidney probelms. Are these symptoms familiar to anyone?  I admit, they’re vague, but any help would be appreciated.

Do you mean a 35 day long menstrual period?  If so, she may well have anemia.  Something is not normal and she needs to see a Dr., not a nurse. — Type 2 http://www.redshift.com/~juliebove/

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If it is kidney disease, liver disease, ovarian or uterine disease, then she needs to see a doc right away.  Since you don’t know what it is, then you need a diagnosis.  You can’t get that over the internet.  Go see a doc.  Tomorrow would be okay, but today would be even better. I hope that it is something easily treatable! Richard – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My wife is type-1 diabetic.  For about three weeks she’s had a much harder time keeping her blood sugars under control, and has had general pain all over her torso and excessive fatigue.  She had an unusually long period (35 days), so we thought it may have had something to do with that, but a nurse suggested it may be kidney probelms. Are these symptoms familiar to anyone?  I admit, they’re vague, but any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Mike Stay

Response:

I do not know about those problems, but I suggest your wife should have a thorough medical examination by a doctor. My wife is type-1 diabetic.  For about three weeks she’s had a much harder time keeping her blood sugars under control, and has had general pain all over her torso and excessive fatigue.  She had an unusually long period (35 days), so we thought it may have had something to do with that, but a nurse suggested it may be kidney probelms. Are these symptoms familiar to anyone?  I admit, they’re vague, but any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Mike Stay

– Henry M. Type II, Diagnosed 1994, Melbourne, Australia

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I do not know about those problems, but I suggest your wife should have a thorough medical examination by a doctor. My wife is type-1 diabetic.  For about three weeks she’s had a much harder time keeping her blood sugars under control, and has had general pain all over her torso and excessive fatigue.  She had an unusually long period (35 days), so we thought it may have had something to do with that, but a nurse suggested it may be kidney probelms. Are these symptoms familiar to anyone?  I admit, they’re vague, but any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Mike Stay

After 3 weeks, an exam sounds like a good idea. Could your wife have an infectio nof some sort?

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Question:

You might want to examnie more the details of Nephrogenic Diabetes Insipidus, or Gitelman’s Syndrome, or Bartter’s syndrome (sp) syndrome. They have polyuria, polydipsia, and loop of Henle disturbaces in common, and some may be inherited or acuired. They really didn’t give you very much niformation to go on, did they? "Mr Bungle" <laur…@lavalink.com.au> wrote in message

news:154bf9ed.0109232058.430aaad0@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello all, > I have a question that I was hoping someone here could answer : > I’m doing an assignment on a unnamed inherited kidney disease which > results in the loops of henle in the kidney being abnormally short, > resulting in symptoms such as excessive urination and thirst. I’m not > sure if this mystery disease is fictitious or not, but if it is’nt I’m > looking for the name of it. > Any help would be greatly appreciated! :)

Response:

Thanks for this information – it’s exactly what I needed. :) I’ve found quite a bit of information on these afflictions on the web, now that I know the names of these renal diseases. "John Biggers" <jbigg…@carolina.rr.com> wrote in message <news:szQr7.44565$4W6.9855588@typhoon.southeast.rr.com>… > You might want to examnie more the details of Nephrogenic Diabetes > Insipidus, or Gitelman’s Syndrome, or Bartter’s syndrome (sp) syndrome. > They have polyuria, polydipsia, and loop of Henle disturbaces in common, and > some may be inherited or acuired. They really didn’t give you very much > niformation to go on, did they?

With the assignment the important thing is not identifying the disease ( it might be ficticious for all I know ) but discussing possible effects and symptoms etc from having a shortened loop of henle. Thanks again. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Mr Bungle" <laur…@lavalink.com.au> wrote in message > news:154bf9ed.0109232058.430aaad0@posting.google.com… > > Hello all, > > I have a question that I was hoping someone here could answer : > > I’m doing an assignment on a unnamed inherited kidney disease which > > results in the loops of henle in the kidney being abnormally short, > > resulting in symptoms such as excessive urination and thirst. I’m not > > sure if this mystery disease is fictitious or not, but if it is’nt I’m > > looking for the name of it. > > Any help would be greatly appreciated! :)

Response:

Hello all, I have a question that I was hoping someone here could answer : I’m doing an assignment on a unnamed inherited kidney disease which results in the loops of henle in the kidney being abnormally short, resulting in symptoms such as excessive urination and thirst. I’m not sure if this mystery disease is fictitious or not, but if it is’nt I’m looking for the name of it. Any help would be greatly appreciated! :)

Response:

Question:

Bob, Cutting the calories brings with it it’s own set of problems as I found out after a couple of months at 1400 calories a day (measured rigorously on FitDay).  I STILL only lost a couple pounds (mostly water, I think) but then when I returned to 1800 a day–bam–weight gain!

Actually I am not considering cutting calories, just adjusting my diet to a proper ratio of carbs fat and protien more  in tune to a wieghtlifters type diet. Mind you I am doing research now, there is so much BS on the subject you really have to read carefully. Meanwhile I am sticking to low carb….  you know if it feels good, well keep doing it. Bob

Response:

Lyle McDonald’s book offered that eating too much protien was unecessary, and that the diet should be made up in fats to complete a caloric intake while dieting ketogenically. ‘after the first few weeks of ketosis, protien requirements will go down as the body reduces it’s need for glucose,’ he writes.   He offers suggestions for amounts which might be necessary as well. HTH, Ezr That said, if I can come up with anything solid, I will send it to the researchers at Albert Einstein Medical School’s

Endocrinology department who – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -are starting to do some real research about low carbing.

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exactly what are your qualifications for advancing this theory? Why must there be qualifications for proposing a new hypothesis? Hypotheses are made plausible by strength of argument, and are supported by experiment.

Gavin, anybody can and is free to propose a new hypothesis whenever they’d like.  My issue is relevance.  I asked the question not to insult her, but to understand her perspective and whether the observations went beyond her own personal experiences.   " Strength of argument"? Well, when it is  based on what has happened during one persons experience with combinations of different drugs and diet,  it is hard for me to understand what would and wouldn’t relate to my own situation. Tony

Response:

Bob, Cutting the calories brings with it it’s own set of problems as I found out after a couple of months at 1400 calories a day (measured rigorously on FitDay).  I STILL only lost a couple pounds (mostly water, I think) but then when I returned to 1800 a day–bam–weight gain! If super-gluconeogenesis is not the explanation, something else is.  There seems to be some kind of imprint left from low carbing that keeps it from working after a certain point.  The first time it takes the body by surprise, but after that adaptation, even after many years, it doesn’t.

Response:

BTW, a fasting blood sugar of 75 is perfectly OK

maybe for some- but it’s not so much the "low" reading- it’s the higher reading it dropped from—the dreaded hypo death drop. If your blood glucose spikes out at say 200 one to two hours post-prandial (after eating) and the drops to  75 in an hour you can experience all of the hypoglycemic symptoms that you’d expect with a much lower reading of say 40. The drop is the killer (think walking into a brick wall) I have experinced palpittaions, cold sweats, shaking, vomiting, diziness etc. with a erading of 75. My average blood glucose level is about 105 (i’m a T2 diabetic)  Eveything is relative. Tamera The Dancing Cat

Response:

exactly what are your qualifications for advancing this theory? Why must there be qualifications for proposing a new hypothesis? Hypotheses are made plausible by strength of argument, and are supported by experiment. Gavin, 233/212/191, 5′10", (73 days, 21 pounds)

 Yeah! I scientist is in the ranks!

Response:

Folks, I’ve learned some very interesting things from my experiment with Metformin (posted in another message) and I think I might have figured out why so many of us stall on low carbing and why some of us long-timers are running into problems with energy levels, weight gain and, in my case high  insulin levels while low carbing….

Yikes, that theory would certainly argue against people like me, who aren’t actually overweight, doing low-carb. I don’t want to end up with permanent changes to my digestive/energy mechanisms, if they aren’t broken to begin with. Sue 130/128/125

Response:

Sue,      Don’t let someone thinking out loud frighten you.  Lowcarbing is not going to permanently alter your body.   Some systems adjust to accomodate the changes in the types of foods consumed, but just as the body takes time to adjust for ketones, it takes time to adjust if one goes back to a high carb routine.  To keep adjustments in as narrow a spectrum as possible one would try to avoid the most extreme ends of any routine looking for their individualized  "happy medium".      Unless you surgically remove an organ or damage one with strong doses of dangerous drugs, the body is well equipped to go back to the beginning.  Of course age, disease or other factors have to be factored into any new, seemingly permanent changes.      Jenny has such excessive responses to most drugs, phytoestrogens, supplements, etc. that it wouldn’t be a good idea to use her responses as a guideline to what happens in the average case.   Lee Rodgers – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Folks, I’ve learned some very interesting things from my experiment with Metformin (posted in another message) and I think I might have figured out why so many of us stall on low carbing and why some of us long-timers are running into problems with energy levels, weight gain and, in my case high  insulin levels while low carbing…. Yikes, that theory would certainly argue against people like me, who aren’t actually overweight, doing low-carb. I don’t want to end up with permanent changes to my digestive/energy mechanisms, if they aren’t broken to begin with. Sue 130/128/125

IN MY OPINION prefaces anything written above my name Sipping Oil Message Board http://lowcarbretreat.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb Eat meat, drink water, sip oil and move. Atkins/Protein Power/Ketogenic

Response:

Good work, Jenny, this is a point I’ve been researching. As background I took "Personal Health 101 and 102" in 1958 and forgot about it as soon as I could.  I considered dieters and body cultists to be benign nuts to be tolerated but not encouraged… until my beautiful bride was diagnosed as type2.   Now, I am a nut of the total immersion type.  Give me a problem and in a few days I can tell you what what the experts think and can reduce it to a simple outline. Let’s try type 2. 1. Type 2 diabetes is an insulin disorder.      a. Overproduction by the pancreas      b. Resistance by muscle cells 2. Production of insulin is mainly a response of eating vegetables.      a. Only essential vegetables should be eaten until blood sugars are under control.      b. There aint no essential vegetables (The food supplement business is huge and competitive, if you can prove a micronutrient or mineral not found in vitamin pills is essential, I.E. your body needs it and cannot produce it, then you could be rich and famous by Friday.) 3. Resistance (insulin) of muscle cells responds to moderate exercise.      a. high blood sugars will lower.      b. normal blood sugars will rise Conclusion:  Diabetics of all stripes are benefited by, and to the degree that they observe proper diet and proper exercise.   The people in this newsgroup led me to many good sites to learn and, as you are doing, gave me more difficult questions. Here is what little I’ve found: 1. Neither glucose or its progenitors are essential. (see2a&b above)to a healthy person and that probably includes type2s in control, because we usually produce enough of our own carb based fuels. In fact it appears we produce too much.      a. Unused carbs get turned into fat.      b. Too few carbs tend to result in higher utilization of "fats" as fuel and potential loss of protein. Body builders who are not interested in anything but the observable results often "bulk up" by using glucose and insulin, sometimes IM sometimes by drip into a vein WHILE doing high intensity exercises.  Good grief.  They do bulk up, but of course part of it is fat.  So at an exact, predetermined time they stop all eating and do moderate aerobic exercises to failure which puts them into ketosis.  And how do they know. Well that’s easy their bg drops to between 50 to 60….where type1s would be babbling and falling and stuff. Some say they can watch the fat disappear or at least watch definition (cuts etc.)appear. Then at the proper minute…It’s showtime. 2. Anaerobic exercise seems to use lots of carbs and protein.      a. high intensity training is the prime example.      b. accounts for muscle loss if diet lacks enough protein 3. Aerobic activities seem to thrive on fat fuels.      a. sleeping is the prime example.      b. accounts for fat loss. It may sound strange to think of sleeping as aerobic but treat it the same as running…we call it aerobic if you use a lot of air, and have you ever listened to anyone sleeping?  Try to sleep with your mouth shut, it is aerobic.  Is running aerobic? Not to a good runner, he aint breathing hard mile after mile, he is exercising his muscles, he’ll run longer when he’s stronger.  That’s anaerobic. It seems that any excursus done long enough or hard enough is anaerobic and will use large amounts of glucose, insulin and high quality protein. Strength is trained. and so is the way our body obtains fuel.  A well trained athlete if fed right will produce copious quantities of ATP,CP glucose and glycogen and will try to obtain them by nutrition, genesis, de novo or catabolicaly Now let recap: My wife, a type2, has her bg under control through diet and Metformin(Glucophage). But is still insulin resistant and will be, it appears, until she loses weight. You might be in the same situation. Of course your bg is lower, that’s the purpose of lo-carb. If your not using carbs from whatever source you wouldn’t expect more than a basal amount in your bloodstream.  Your pancreas is finally getting a chance to catch its itty-bitty breath.  Nothing wrong with that. You would only be "in a hypo" if you hadn’t trained your body to use fat. The basal level is still high enough to take care of essential uses. If you do any anaerobic exercise your liver will turn loose enough "stuff" to replenish the glycogen and glucose in the muscles used.  And since you are insulin resistant it will have to ask for too much insulin and does that by sending out too much glucose, what isn’t quickly used will end up on your hips. That’s what the liver does for a living,  Say thank you but don’t buy it a drink. You and my wife, and I, would probably benefit from learning more about the effects of high intensity and interval training tailored to diabetics so that the bg swings are within safe limits and still provide the calorie burning advantages. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Folks, I’ve learned some very interesting things from my experiment with Metformin (posted in another message) and I think I might have figured out why so many of us stall on low carbing and why some of us long-timers are running into problems with energy levels, weight gain and, in my case high  insulin levels while low carbing. First of all, before I advance my theory, I want to remind you that there is NO research on the physiological changes caused in the body by long term low carbing. Everything we know is based on studies that only last a couple of weeks. We’ve been assuming that what is true at 6 weeks continues on, but I am now convinced this is completely wrong. The drug I am now taking blocks gluconeogenesis. This is the process the body uses to convert dietary protein (or muscle) into glucose when glycogen is exhausted and there is no dietary carbohydrate available to provide the 60 gms a day the brain needs to function.  I am responding to it by having intense low blood sugar episodes, even though the drug in testing with zillions of people was found NOT to cause low blood sugar episodes.  Normal people, however, do not depend on gluconeogenesis for their blood sugar but get it from dietary carbs. But low carbers, unlike most people who take this drug, depend on gluconeogenesis for blood sugar. My suspicion is that, over time, the low carbing body becomes more and more efficient at gluconeogenesis. The books say that the body can convert about 60 percent of protein and 10 percent of fat into carbs. However, this is based on studies of people who eat a normal carby diet.  I now believe that what happens to many low carbers is that the body gets to where it can crank out a whole lot more carbs from dietary protein. These carbs then  raise insulin levels and bring weight loss to a halt. Even worse, when the person goes back to eating carbs the gluconeogenesis continues!  Thus the person is getting a double dose of carbs and very rapid weight gain ensues.. Finally, I realized that a lot of what I have been feeling lately while low carbing feels like hypoglycemia. Ironically, I only tested my blood while low carbing if I ate carbs since I "knew" that the levels were always normal after testing the first year I started.  Test Strips are really expensive and I didn’t want to "waste" them.  However, now that I’ve been hypoing all over the place and testing I realize that I was hypoing and experiencing a very similar weakness when I was meat fasting or keeping carbs at 20 gms a day. I went back and looked at the lab test results I got for the post-breakfast low carb day when the researcher visited and discoved that my plasma blood sugar level that day was 75. That’s about 60-something on a meter–a hypo level! My assumption is that this is what happened. Over years of low carbing my body became hyper efficient at producing glucose from protein.  I was, of course, eating a lot of protein as per Protein Power. The heavy glucose load spurred a lot of insulin production. The insulin caused hypos. That was why my energy level stunk while low carbing this last year. It is also why I can’t lose anything but water weight and why I started GAINING weight on the same low carb regimen on which I happily maintained for a year or so. I think this also explains why people who go back to eating carbs gain so much and don’t show dramatic results the second time they try Atkins.  The body, alas, once it gets into gluconeogenesis KEEPS DOING IT. Too bad that no one does real research not funded by drug companies. I’d LOVE to see a study of gluconeogenesis in long term low carbers. But if this is true, it explains (tragically) why despite the hype in the diet books so many of us stall out after a brief honeymoon weight loss.

Response:

Upon reflection, I have an idea. Our genes code for a lot of different proteins.  I am no biochemist, so I couldn’t hazard a guess as to how many.  Thousands?  Millions?  I don’t know.  But only a small percentage of these proteins are ever expressed.   I find it entirely feasible that different proteins are expressed in response to different conditions.  One simple example of this is something I have experienced myself many times – digestive enzymes.  If I am used to one diet, then I change it, it takes a few days for production of the new enzymes required to be geared up. My idea, then, is that we have the coding for lots of proteins that under normal circumstances don’t get produced, but could be produced if we create the right environment for them.  The figure often quoted for gluconeogenesis – 58% for protein, 10% for fat – where does it come from?  A "normal" carb eater?  A low carber? Let’s run with this ball… suppose, then, that extreme low carbing (and we can bicker later about what "extreme" might mean) can cause a change in proteins such that super-gluconeogenesis results.  Maybe the body becomes more efficient at creating glucose out of protein, and hyperinsulinemia results.  It does appear that some people, such as Jenny (undoubtedly; she has the lab tests to prove it) and me (I have no proof, but lots of symptoms bear it out) are experiencing this very thing. And what happens then, if the unfortunate person attempts to control this slide back into hyperinsulinemia by cutting down on protein and consuming more fats?  Might there not be a protein, not normally expressed, that will increase the rate of gluconeogenesis from fats? My basic theory: the body is immensely adaptable and will do its best to keep us alive by any means necessary.   It is an oft-quoted figure that the brain & other vital organs require 50g of glucose a day (please correct me if these facts are incorrect). But most low carbers eat well below this level, I think.  No problem, we always say – we can make glucose from protein & fat; we don’t need to eat carbs.  Well, maybe *for some of us* the chickens are coming home to roost.  Maybe it is habitually eating below this level that is making our bodies turn to other sources in ways that we don’t like. Why should this not be reversible?  It seems that it is *long term*, *strict* low carb dieting that causes this effect.  If it didn’t turn up overnight, maybe it won’t go away overnight either.  Maybe it will take a long time to change, just as it took a long time to show up in the first place.  This is not at all to disparage Jenny’s comments about low carbing sometimes not working the second time round – that is another phenomenon to be discussed – but I guess I am optimistic. I am experiencing a fairly major change in my thinking, over the last month or so.  I am now seriously wondering whether it is doing me (I can’t generalise about other people) any good to eat less carbs a day than is required by my body.  I already know that eating very low carb has profound effects on me (don’t yet know what they are – whether it is serotonin issues, or thyroid, or something else that I don’t have a name for yet, I know that I need to stop my carbs from going too low). So, my body, my science experiment.  Beginning today, I am setting my sights on about 50g carbs a day, and let’s see what happens. YMMV. — Rosiebint, Arch-Bitch-Tribble from Hell 262/201/150 Paleo-Atkins since 10th June 1999

Response:

On reflection, I wonder… Some people swear by getting their fat intake right up.  Me, I’ve only been doing it for two days so I’m in no position to know whether it works for me, long term. But, so the theory goes, by keeping your protein intake down to merely adequate levels, and making up the calories with fat, then you are minimising gluconeogenesis. Perhaps, if you are right, Jenny (and how I hope you are not) then those of us experiencing this problem can attack it with extremely oily diets. You know, years ago you used to post that extreme lc might store up problems for us in the long run, such as thyroid & so on.  Yeah yeah, I thought, well I’m not listening to that, lc is working bloody brilliant for me.  How I wish I had listened to you then.  I might not be in this state now. — Rosiebint, Arch-Bitch-Tribble from Hell 262/201/150 Paleo-Atkins since 10th June 1999

Response:

There is something to what you say.  The body does adapt.  I’ve tried going back on induction and have lost zero weight; it does not work for me anymore.  I’ve been on low carb for over two years (probably 30-50g/day), and dropping to 20g does not seem to do anything (other than ketosis breath & constipation). A couple other people say the same thing.  I think the same is true with other diets; your body knows what you are doing and slows the metabolism down.  Exercise is one way to counteract that, which I’m getting back into.  Someone has to come up with new ways to trick the body :) — Dave  (LC since 5/21/99) 185/154/145 http://markson.net/lowcarb.htm (My Lowcarb Page) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Folks, I’ve learned some very interesting things from my experiment with Metformin (posted in another message) and I think I might have figured out why so many of us stall on low carbing and why some of us long-timers are running into problems with energy levels, weight gain and, in my case high  insulin levels while low carbing. First of all, before I advance my theory, I want to remind you that there is NO research on the physiological changes caused in the body by long term low carbing. Everything we know is based on studies that only last a couple of weeks. We’ve been assuming that what is true at 6 weeks continues on, but I am now convinced this is completely wrong. The drug I am now taking blocks gluconeogenesis. This is the process the body uses to convert dietary protein (or muscle) into glucose when glycogen is exhausted and there is no dietary carbohydrate available to provide the 60 gms a day the brain needs to function.  I am responding to it by having intense low blood sugar episodes, even though the drug in testing with zillions of people was found NOT to cause low blood sugar episodes.  Normal people, however, do not depend on gluconeogenesis for their blood sugar but get it from dietary carbs. But low carbers, unlike most people who take this drug, depend on gluconeogenesis for blood sugar. My suspicion is that, over time, the low carbing body becomes more and more efficient at gluconeogenesis. The books say that the body can convert about 60 percent of protein and 10 percent of fat into carbs. However, this is based on studies of people who eat a normal carby diet.  I now believe that what happens to many low carbers is that the body gets to where it can crank out a whole lot more carbs from dietary protein. These carbs then  raise insulin levels and bring weight loss to a halt. Even worse, when the person goes back to eating carbs the gluconeogenesis continues!  Thus the person is getting a double dose of carbs and very rapid weight gain ensues.. Finally, I realized that a lot of what I have been feeling lately while low carbing feels like hypoglycemia. Ironically, I only tested my blood while low carbing if I ate carbs since I "knew" that the levels were always normal after testing the first year I started.  Test Strips are really expensive and I didn’t want to "waste" them.  However, now that I’ve been hypoing all over the place and testing I realize that I was hypoing and experiencing a very similar weakness when I was meat fasting or keeping carbs at 20 gms a day. I went back and looked at the lab test results I got for the post-breakfast low carb day when the researcher visited and discoved that my plasma blood sugar level that day was 75. That’s about 60-something on a meter–a hypo level! My assumption is that this is what happened. Over years of low carbing my body became hyper efficient at producing glucose from protein.  I was, of course, eating a lot of protein as per Protein Power. The heavy glucose load spurred a lot of insulin production. The insulin caused hypos. That was why my energy level stunk while low carbing this last year. It is also why I can’t lose anything but water weight and why I started GAINING weight on the same low carb regimen on which I happily maintained for a year or so. I think this also explains why people who go back to eating carbs gain so much and don’t show dramatic results the second time they try Atkins.  The body, alas, once it gets into gluconeogenesis KEEPS DOING IT. Too bad that no one does real research not funded by drug companies. I’d LOVE to see a study of gluconeogenesis in long term low carbers. But if this is true, it explains (tragically) why despite the hype in the diet books so many of us stall out after a brief honeymoon weight loss.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is something to what you say.  The body does adapt.  I’ve tried going back on induction and have lost zero weight; it does not work for me anymore.  I’ve been on low carb for over two years (probably 30-50g/day), and dropping to 20g does not seem to do anything (other than ketosis breath & constipation). A couple other people say the same thing.  I think the same is true with other diets; your body knows what you are doing and slows the metabolism down.  Exercise is one way to counteract that, which I’m getting back into.  Someone has to come up with new ways to trick the body :) — Dave  (LC since 5/21/99) 185/154/145 http://markson.net/lowcarb.htm (My Lowcarb Page)

Hi Dave, yep you have described the very situation I am in now. I dropped a large amount of wieght 100 lbs in about 9 months.  Now, for the last 2 months, no matter what I  do, I seem to be fluctuating 2-4 lbs either way (198-202). Now I am exercising, weight training mostly, and I am slowly adjusting my diet to acommodate the demands I am placing on my body.  My theory….. I think the body is much smarter than we give it credit, "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me".   Now it’s making us work to loose the wieght, you know… the old burn more calories than you take in theory….  Not looking forward to that… Bob 302/200/192

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is something to what you say.  The body does adapt.  I’ve tried going back on induction and have lost zero weight; it does not work for me anymore.  I’ve been on low carb for over two years (probably 30-50g/day), and dropping to 20g does not seem to do anything (other than ketosis breath & constipation). A couple other people say the same thing.  I think the same is true with other diets; your body knows what you are doing and slows the metabolism down. Exercise is one way to counteract that, which I’m getting back into. Someone has to come up with new ways to trick the body :) — Dave  (LC since 5/21/99) 185/154/145

The body adapting might explain why the McDougal Plan (very low fat similar to Ornish) caused rapid weight loss for me the first time. I lost 15 pounds in 3 weeks without being hungry. Which seems to equal what many people lose on the Atkins induction plan. But when I gained weight and tried it again,  I lost 5 pounds over 5 months . (lose, gain, lose, gain). Even though I walked 3 miles a day the first time and ran up to 5 miles a day the second time and was always hungry. Also the first time on low fat I actually did lower my blood pressure. But it went up again and never came down. Now it is down again on low carb.

Response:

Bridget, Here’s a little fact that casts light on where the authors of the diet books are coming from. The latest paperback printing of DADR according to Publisher’s Weekly was 1.3 million copies.  The author is probably getting 10-12% of cover on each one. And that is only ONE printing.  Do the math. With sales like that, these authors have every incentive to do nothing to rock the boat. The last thing they want to do is fund anything that might cast doubt on the Miricle Cure nature of their diets.  Teh fact that all the sample dieters in Atkins books are newbies after 25+ years of him peddling the diet tells me that he only deals with newbies and doesn’t care about follow up.  I’d like to see a low carb diet book with fifty examples from people who lost 100 pounds and kept it off for 10 years.  There is one diet book drawn from the people listed in the National Weight Loss Registry which was a useful book though they were all low cal dieters. Mostly it talks about the psychological changes they were able to make. That said, if I can come up with anything solid, I will send it to the researchers at Albert Einstein Medical School’s Endocrinology department who are starting to do some real research about low carbing.

Response:

<snipped interesting theory regarding longerm low carb, protein digestion, and stalling, worth reading whole thing Jenny, thank you for your thoughtful post. I wonder if you would consider sharing your theory with the authors of some of the popular diet books, to see if they could possibly get a study funded. Since you have the data available, you’d be helping a great number of people by going to this trouble, if you wouldn’t mind. ….. Bridget M. CAD 2/4/94 High: 194 LC 7/12/01 188/175/126

Response:

The results completely shot my belief in the "without carbs you can’t have insulin release" argument.

Most of what I’ve read doesn’t say without carbs you can’t have insulin. In fact, it’s widely accepted that artificial sweeteners cause insulin release, chewing unflavored gum causes insulin release, stress causes insulin release, certain kinds of meat especially pork can cause insulin release, nuts, cabbage, green beans, summer squash, and eggplant can cause insulin release, and I wouldn’t be surprised if there were many others. ….. Bridget M. CAD 2/4/94 High: 194 LC 7/12/01 188/175/126

Response:

It can’t become more efficient. Its right in the creb cycle. You are experiencing plateaus which all dieters experience. A plateau is a 6 pound range or so downward from the weight your stuck at.  If the range is not broken completely, you will gain right back to the plateau once you do the normal low-carb diet. For example, someone does a 15 mile run for 2 days and loses 2 pounds, he then gains the 2 pounds back a day or 2 afterward. If he runs for 3 days, he breaks the 6 pound range, and then continues losing downward at the normal low-carb diet. He may even be able to eat more for a while and keep losing. Doing something to lose the first 2, and stopping will only give you temporary weight loss. Cravings are also increased when your in the range of a plateau.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Folks, I’ve learned some very interesting things from my experiment with Metformin (posted in another message) and I think I might have figured out why so many of us stall on low carbing and why some of us long-timers are running into problems with energy levels, weight gain and, in my case high  insulin levels while low carbing. First of all, before I advance my theory, I want to remind you that there is NO research on the physiological changes caused in the body by long term low carbing. Everything we know is based on studies that only last a couple of weeks. We’ve been assuming that what is true at 6 weeks continues on, but I am now convinced this is completely wrong. The drug I am now taking blocks gluconeogenesis. This is the process the body uses to convert dietary protein (or muscle) into glucose when glycogen is exhausted and there is no dietary carbohydrate available to provide the 60 gms a day the brain needs to function.  I am responding to it by having intense low blood sugar episodes, even though the drug in testing with zillions of people was found NOT to cause low blood sugar episodes. Normal people, however, do not depend on gluconeogenesis for their blood sugar but get it from dietary carbs. But low carbers, unlike most people who take this drug, depend on gluconeogenesis for blood sugar. My suspicion is that, over time, the low carbing body becomes more and more efficient at gluconeogenesis. The books say that the body can convert about 60 percent of protein and 10 percent of fat into carbs. However, this is based on studies of people who eat a normal carby diet.  I now believe that what happens to many low carbers is that the body gets to where it can crank out a whole lot more carbs from dietary protein. These carbs then  raise insulin levels and bring weight loss to a halt. Even worse, when the person goes back to eating carbs the gluconeogenesis continues!  Thus the person is getting a double dose of carbs and very rapid weight gain ensues.. Finally, I realized that a lot of what I have been feeling lately while low carbing feels like hypoglycemia. Ironically, I only tested my blood while low carbing if I ate carbs since I "knew" that the levels were always normal after testing the first year I started.  Test Strips are really expensive and I didn’t want to "waste" them.  However, now that I’ve been hypoing all over the place and testing I realize that I was hypoing and experiencing a very similar weakness when I was meat fasting or keeping carbs at 20 gms a day. I went back and looked at the lab test results I got for the post-breakfast low carb day when the researcher visited and discoved that my plasma blood sugar level that day was 75. That’s about 60-something on a meter–a hypo level! My assumption is that this is what happened. Over years of low carbing my body became hyper efficient at producing glucose from protein.  I was, of course, eating a lot of protein as per Protein Power. The heavy glucose load spurred a lot of insulin production. The insulin caused hypos. That was why my energy level stunk while low carbing this last year. It is also why I can’t lose anything but water weight and why I started GAINING weight on the same low carb regimen on which I happily maintained for a year or so. I think this also explains why people who go back to eating carbs gain so much and don’t show dramatic results the second time they try Atkins.  The body, alas, once it gets into gluconeogenesis KEEPS DOING IT. Too bad that no one does real research not funded by drug companies. I’d LOVE to see a study of gluconeogenesis in long term low carbers. But if this is true, it explains (tragically) why despite the hype in the diet books so many of us stall out after a brief honeymoon weight loss.

Response:

Folks, I’ve learned some very interesting things from my experiment with Metformin (posted in another message) and I think I might have figured out why so many of us stall on low carbing and why some of us long-timers are running into problems with energy levels, weight gain and, in my case high  insulin levels while low carbing. First of all, before I advance my theory

Interesting.  Depressing, but interesting theory.  Don’t be offended,  but exactly what are your qualifications for advancing this theory?  Is this your professional theory are an educated layperson viewpoint? Tony

Response:

Tony: My hypothesis are those of an educated person who has been reading everything available in Medscape’s diabetes newsletter for the past 2 1/2 years. I’m not a professional, but I’m quite knowledgeable by now. If I had trusted drug company literature and what doctors told me five years ago, I’d be well on my way to diabetic retinopathy and the diabetic kidney disease that took out grandparents on both sides of my family–all of whom were, like me, not obese and  therefore not screened carefully for their type II diabetes.  Ironically, the post-prandial blood sugar levels that Kaiser dismissed in 1998 as "normal" (after I showed up spilling sugar in my urine!)  are now considered diagnostic for diabetes. I wouldn’t have known that of course, if I’d left the doctor 3 years ago figuring I was fine because my fasting level was still normal and gone my merry carb-eating way. Now, after discovering that the "Low carbing lowers insulin" argument is NOT TRUE, at least not for my body based on lab testing including insulin levels, I want some further answers. I also was disturbed to learn that while fasting triglyceride levels were low while low carbing, post prandial tryiglyceride levels were VERY high. That was worrisome since that means I’m walking around with high triglycerides all day even if the lab tests are pretty. But what is "depressing" about coming up with a hypothesis that might explain an effect that has up until now not been understood? Once we can understand what is going on, we are much better situated to improve the situation. Remember, low carb is NOT a religion based on faith. It is supposed to be a scientifically supported approach to modifying our metabolisms. Unfortunately, there is little real reseach backing up the claims of the doctors who have earned upwards of 10 Million dollars for their books claiming that low carbing reduces insulin.  Most people can’t afford to have insulin testing done as it is not something most doctors offer. I was VERY lucky to be part of a medical study that gave me a snapshot insulin level that I could match to the meal, time, and blood sugar reading that went with it.  The results completely shot my belief in the "without carbs you can’t have insulin release" argument.  I was low carbing, I had been low carbing for years, and my insulin a couple hours after a meal of bacon was HIGH. Lee:  The study you point to, like most The idea that lowering blood glucose lowers insulin so that the system is self-regulating is contradicted by the reports of many people posting on the diabetes newsgroups who have experienced serious hypos while on Metformin , despite drug company reports that it isn’t possible. People also report scary hypos while on no medication at all. My partner, back when he was at about 4% fat , had some really scary hypos with his sugar dropping into the 50s and causing neuro symptoms. That’s with no drugs, just working too hard and so skinny there was no margin for error but it shows that the body can lose its regulatory feedback.  Since I was alone for four days out here in the country, I did not want to find out whether it WAS possible to drop into the 50s since there would be no one to call 411 if I did.  That said, I doubt that most people can have a life-threatening hypo from either carb restriction or Metformin but I do think that low sugar caused by higher than suspected insulin generated from protein might explain what’s going on in the people who feel exhausted and drained after several months of low carbing. The reason I post this now is because there are a lot of us here dealing with related issues and I would like to get more creative thinking coupled with experimental stuff going on.  I don’t know if I’m right or wrong. I would like to spark some intelligent discussion of the topic. Jerry: Why I’m not going off this stuff right away is that I wasn’t taking it specifically to lower blood sugar. I am taking it because my insulin levels–while low carbing –ere at the very top of the normal range well into the level diagnostic of hyperinsulinism. Since I also have had very high cholesterol that did not come down after a long period of low carbing (though fasting triglycerides dropped) , another symptom of hyperinsulinism, it looks like my body is able to keep insulin HIGH while dietary carbs are low and this needs to be addressed. Metformin is supposed to be able to decreas insulin levels without threatening the liver or causing weight gain like Avandia and drugs in that class.  I’m going to keep working on finding the right dosage because I HAVE to get my insulin levels down and limiting carbs wasn’t doing it. As far as the idea that a blood sugar level of 70 isn’t a hypo, it sure felt like one! Very intense and frightening. I used to think my partner was exaggerating when he’d get upset about his hypoglycemic attacks . After this weekend, I realize he  wasn’t. Rosie:  I come from a computer systems background and at one time was considered a brilliant debugger of large complex systems where the documentation was lost. I learned that sometimes when there are too many variables involved in a systems failure and you have no idea where to start, you have to just start playing around, trying ideas out that generate results and seeing what direction those results point you in. I’m feeling the same way here.  Hopefully when I’m done I’ll have a couple data points which, combined with datapoints from other people in similar fixes, might start giving us some ideas for how to correct the problems. Since there are so very few long time low carbers available and this is the best place to find them, I’m hoping that those of us who are long term and stalled can start figuring out some of these answers together.

Response:

I’d keep good notes and continue researching my body my science project before coming to any firm conclusions.  The number of variables involved are tremendous and quite difficult to control. Think of it as:  shifting sands meet YMMV atop a slippery slope on a windy day :-) A few interesting articles for the curious: John E. Gerich Physiology of glucose homeostasis Diabetes, Obesity & Metabolism 2  (6), 345-350 "The brain cannot store or produce glucose and therefore depends on plasma glucose for its immediate survival. A decrement in plasma glucose level as little as

Question:

I wouldn’t be so sure about those seams…Copper is very malable. A good smith with the right tools can open those seams up pretty quickly…He can remove the old solder and redo the joints to… I would recommond the Society for Creative Anachronisms.  They have a lot of metal workers in their groups.  I know of a blacksmith near where I live (NE Ohio), but I don’t know if he’ld be willing to take this job.  I don’t have his web address here, but do a search with the phrase "Lost Gypsy Forge" and you should find it.

Well, a blacksmith wasn’t exactly what I had in mind…I think they used to be called "Tinkers"? Then they got uppity and decided they were Tin smiths or Copper Smiths. (Personally, I think every brewer should have a connection to the SCA.

Don’tcha just love the way they jump on their 3000mhz Pentiums to Video-Chat while wearing period costume…!… ]]]Z[[[

Response:

I wouldn't be so sure about those seams...Copper is very malable. A good smith with the right tools can open those seams up pretty quickly...He can remove the old solder and redo the joints to... It probably won't be CHEAP...but you might be suprised about how reasonable the cost should be. But you'll probably have to find someone who's doing art work to find those old skills. Asking around at a university art dept. is likely the best bet.

I would recommond the Society for Creative Anachronisms.  They have a lot of metal workers in their groups.  I know of a blacksmith near where I live (NE Ohio), but I don't know if he'ld be willing to take this job.  I don't have his web address here, but do a search with the phrase "Lost Gypsy Forge" and you should find it.  (Personally, I think every brewer should have a connection to the SCA.  This year at Pennsic, they had almost two dozen classes on brewing beer, wine, and mead, plus all the informal "peer review" meetings.)

Response:

I've just done a quick yahoo search and found a few US companies: http://www.knowlead.com/    $14.95    4 tests http://www.leadtestkits.com/   $21.95   10 tests http://www.leadtest.com/     $9.95   3 tests Sounds like these will do the trick. There's probably other companies supplying test kits - these are just the first ones I found. Since others have said that plumbers are not allowed to use lead solder any more (probably also true in Australia) then you could either get your local friendly plumber to refresh the joints, or you could do it yourself with a gas-powered soldering iron from the local hardware store. Since the copper pot would have a large thermal mass, and copper is such an excellent conductor of heat, I imagine the iron would have to be substantial (hence the recommendation for a gas-powered beast) Your local Tim the Toolman should be able to recommend the right size. Pick a guy that looks at least 50 years old. Maybe direct brazing with a flame is required? I don't know, I'm going beyond my experience here. Buddies who are tradesmen have told me that an oxy-flame (unless used very carefully) will tear through copper in the blink of an eye. I believe a good welder can braze with oxy but it needs to be a small flame and used with sympathy. A direct propane flame might be gentler, but once again it could make a meal of the copper - if it doesn't melt holes in it, too much heat will still cause distortion. A soldering iron should not cause distortion. Personally, I'd be staying away from flames because I've no experience with them. Also, a flame will vapourise some of the solder, so you might be breathing in lead. That's probably going against the point of the whole exercise... I like Chris's suggestion to wipe off the old solder with a damp cloth. Cotton of course! synthetics will melt and stick to the work. The solder will also fall, spash and solidify into your carpet and concrete, so lay down old newspaper to catch the globs. An old carpet or rug that you can discard would be perfect. Jeans, boots and long sleeves will protect your skin from the molten drops. I used to flick the solder off the tip, and my hands are covered in tiny scars. That was from using a fine electronics soldering iron. A big glob from a big iron would probably stop you working for the day. Come to think of it, have a bucket of water nearby in case you have to plunge any body parts into it. All solder work needs to be clean, even before the removal work, so clean any surface goo (how excited DID you get?-) with typical strong household cleaners, then a very fine wet-n-dry sandpaper used wet will bring up a shiny bright surface, and the water will flush away the abraded lead and copper instead of floating about as dust. Once you start the soldering work, you'll definitely need to use a suitable flux. Have a wet cotton cloth on hand to wipe the tip of the iron on. This keeps the soldering iron (actually made with copper tips) in bright shiny condition. Crusty crap on the tip interferes with a good joint. If you are at all nervous, practice on some scrap. A good solder joint comes from pre-heating the object with the iron, flux, get the solder down and move on with confident strokes. By the time you've finished you'll probably be capable of creating a wonderful assortment of copper objects for your home brewery ;-) I used to do a fair amount of soldering as a kid, including handling the solder to the point that my fingertips were gray. It would be interesting to have myself lead-tested now, after that history. The first website says: SYMPTOMS OF LEAD POISONING Headaches, Irritability, Abdominal Pain, Vomiting, Anemia, Weight Loss, Poor Attention Span, Noticeable Learning Difficulty, Slowed Speech Development, Hyperactivity EFFECTS OF LEAD POISONING Reading and Learning Disabilities, Speech and Language Handicaps, Lowered I.Q., Neurological Deficits, Behavior Problems, Mental Retardation, Kidney Disease, Heart Disease, Stroke, Death And I thought it was just the beer... I'm still uncertain that lead solder is really a threat. It could well be;-) but solder is way different from old paint. Old paint flakes off relatively high quantities of powder, so it's impossible to avoid breathing in the dust if you disturb it - scraping layers of paint where the bottom layers of paint are lead-based is well-known to cause a lot of lead to escape. Solder is an alloy and I wouldn't expect the base metals to be very mobile. I don't know... Perhaps the substances boiled in the pot has a big bearing on that. I know that brass in salt water does lose a lot of it's tin - old brass can become like a sponge, and salty old brass screws crumble like a merangue when you attempt to unscrew them. Disclaimer: Everything I say regarding the toxicity of solder is optimistic guesswork from what I've read and heard, and a dangerously small amount of knowledge, but I would feel safe performing the solder replacement myself. You won't be getting anywhere near the same amount of exposure to solder that I did as a kid, and I ain't dead. Yet. -- Space Corps Directive #349 Any officer found to have been slaughtered and replaced by a shape-changing chameleonic life form shall forfeit all pension rights.     -- Red Dwarf

Response:

Uh, they do make a non-lead solder (for use in copper piped domestic potable water systems) that is not silver solder and that melts at a far lower temperature than silver solder. Seriously though, if you have a method for determining the lead content of solder, I think we'd all like to know how too.  It's always nice to have some piece of mind when buying something pre-manufactured. My method was to remove a blob and then determine the melting point.  Lead solder melts at a lower temp then silver.  I set a soldering iron for lead solder temp and BINGO! If it were silver, it would not have melted.

-- Jim O'Neil, Environmental Consultant North Pole, Alaska 99705

Response:

This pot is old, like REALLY old.  It came from Newfoundland which is an island on the east cost of Canada.  It didn't join Canada until 1949.  I doubt if the guy who made it knew lead was dangerous. I'll look into determining for sure if it was lead.

Response:

Most likely lead. I just checked the plumbing solder I have in the garage. Silver. My electrical solder (old) is lead/tin. Colin T This pot is old, like REALLY old.  It came from Newfoundland which is an island on the east cost of Canada.  It didn't join Canada until 1949.  I doubt if the guy who made it knew lead was dangerous. I'll look into determining for sure if it was lead.

Medford, NY swap net.optonline to reply via e-mail

Response:

Even "lead" fishing sinkers are on their way out

I think the age of the pot makes it very likely that a lead-based solder was used.  NOW, lead is being fazed out, but it was the wonder product for all kinds of things as late as the early 1900's. Carter p.s.  Speaking of lead fishing weights...  I read that in some popular fishing areas, the lead content in the water and in the fish are highly escalated due to the accumulated lead at the bottom.

Response:

I haven't heard about the sinkers but I do know that lead shot is banned where I live. Apparently, the ducks and geese ingest the shot that is mixed in with the gravel on the bottom of the shallows. I'm not a hunter or a game eater so it's not a problem for me. I love fishing but don't eat much fish, just like catching. If lead is banned from sinkers, I'll live with it. I probably kill more brain cells with my brew than my "catch"  ;-) Even "lead" fishing sinkers are on their way out I think the age of the pot makes it very likely that a lead-based solder was used.  NOW, lead is being fazed out, but it was the wonder product for all kinds of things as late as the early 1900's. Carter p.s.  Speaking of lead fishing weights...  I read that in some popular fishing areas, the lead content in the water and in the fish are highly escalated due to the accumulated lead at the bottom.

Medford, NY swap net.optonline to reply via e-mail

Response:

Hey Andrew, How do you know it has lead solder?   I mean, unless you saw the braid it came from, there's no way you'd know unless you had it labratory tested.  After a little bit of use, lead solder looks just like silver solder to me.  It's just hard to belive that someone making a pot would use leaded solder.  It doesn't even make sense because when joining copper, you're typically not an amateur with a torch.  But if you know for sure it's lead, and it's just a little bit, I wouldn't even worry about it.  Lead paint chips were prime snackin' when I was a kid and I turned out just fine (IMHO).....  [just kidding, really] Seriously though, if you have a method for determining the lead content of solder, I think we’d all like to know how too.  It’s always nice to have some piece of mind when buying something pre-manufactured. Russ Boise – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That copper pot I was so happy with?  Yup, it was joined with lead solder. I can remove a lot of it with a propane torch, but there will still be a glaze where the solder was origionally.  My plan is it remove as much as possibe, then redo the joints with a silver solder.  Taking the thing apart is impossible as the seams are folded togeather. Any adivce on removing the old solder would be great.

Response:

Don’t most hardware stores carry lead test kits? I think you swab the suspected area to get a sample and send it to a lab and have them analyze it for a small fee. says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hey Andrew, How do you know it has lead solder?   I mean, unless you saw the braid it came from, there’s no way you’d know unless you had it labratory tested.  After a little bit of use, lead solder looks just like silver solder to me.  It’s just hard to belive that someone making a pot would use leaded solder.  It doesn’t even make sense because when joining copper, you’re typically not an amateur with a torch.  But if you know for sure it’s lead, and it’s just a little bit, I wouldn’t even worry about it.  Lead paint chips were prime snackin’ when I was a kid and I turned out just fine (IMHO)…..  [just kidding, really] Seriously though, if you have a method for determining the lead content of solder, I think we’d all like to know how too.  It’s always nice to have some piece of mind when buying something pre-manufactured. Russ Boise That copper pot I was so happy with?  Yup, it was joined with lead solder. I can remove a lot of it with a propane torch, but there will still be a glaze where the solder was origionally.  My plan is it remove as much as possibe, then redo the joints with a silver solder.  Taking the thing apart is impossible as the seams are folded togeather. Any adivce on removing the old solder would be great.

Response:

Seriously though, if you have a method for determining the lead content of solder, I think we’d all like to know how too.  It’s always nice to have some piece of mind when buying something pre-manufactured.

My method was to remove a blob and then determine the melting point.  Lead solder melts at a lower temp then silver.  I set a soldering iron for lead solder temp and BINGO! If it were silver, it would not have melted.

Response:

Another thought – plumbers use solder for joining copper pipes, andI think that’s 50% lead. So is this really an issue? Perhaps it becomes an issue when the pot is used for boiling, huh?

Plumbers in the US haven’t been allowed to use lead solder for many years.  Don’t know about other places.  Probably the only place lead solder it used is in electrical work and some crafts like leaded glass. As far as I know they are trying to completely phase out it’s use in the US.  Even "lead" fishing sinkers are on their way out, and as far as I know shotgun shells are loaded with stell or something (I’m not a hunter, maybe someone out there is and can tell for sure). Basically all uses of lead except where absolutely critical are being examined.  Even the military is experimenting with something other than lead for bullets (wouldn’t want to endanger anyone’s health on a battlefield now would we… ;-) . –arne DISCLAIMER:  These opinions and statements are those of the author and do not represent any views or positions of the Hewlett-Packard Co.

Response:

You could leave it on and over time I’ll bet you’ll just forget it was ever there. Sorry, I could not resist. I would think if you could cover any remaining portions of the old solder with the new that you should be fine.  The problem would come from the lead leaching out which should be countered with the new solder. Cheers, Mike

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That copper pot I was so happy with?  Yup, it was joined with lead solder. I can remove a lot of it with a propane torch, but there will still be a glaze where the solder was origionally.  My plan is it remove as much as possibe, then redo the joints with a silver solder.  Taking the thing apart is impossible as the seams are folded togeather. Any adivce on removing the old solder would be great.

Response:

Maybe you could consider having it plated.  That would cover the solder. —  Dan Listermann Check out our new E-tail site at http://www.listermann.com Take a look at the anti-telemarketer forum.  It is my new hobby!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That copper pot I was so happy with?  Yup, it was joined with lead solder. I can remove a lot of it with a propane torch, but there will still be a glaze where the solder was origionally.  My plan is it remove as much as possibe, then redo the joints with a silver solder.  Taking the thing apart is impossible as the seams are folded togeather. Any adivce on removing the old solder would be great.

Response:

That copper pot I was so happy with?  Yup, it was joined with lead solder. I can remove a lot of it with a propane torch, but there will still be a glaze where the solder was origionally.  My plan is it remove as much as possibe, then redo the joints with a silver solder.  Taking the thing apart is impossible as the seams are folded togeather.

I wouldn’t be so sure about those seams…Copper is very malable. A good smith with the right tools can open those seams up pretty quickly…He can remove the old solder and redo the joints to… It probably won’t be CHEAP…but you might be suprised about how reasonable the cost should be. But you’ll probably have to find someone who’s doing art work to find those old skills. Asking around at a university art dept. is likely the best bet. ]]]Z[[[

Response:

Remove as much lead solder as you can with the propane torch.  Wipe at the molten solder with a damp cloth – it can be flicked off.  Also, have you seen a "soder wick" – it’s a braided piece of copper that will effectively suck up molten solder. Clean off any remaining solder, and glaze that you can see, with fine sandpaper (back to bright metal).  Also work the sandpaper into the folded seam where you can to get out more. Then put a load of new silver solder into the joint.  Let this harden.  Then put another layer on around the outside of the seam to seal in any little bits of lead that might remain. If you have a tame craftsman, it may be worth having him/her remove the part altogether and fit a new one.  The copper pot is worth quite a few $$$ and it’s worth spending a few more to get it right. If all else fails, mail it to me :-) Chris – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That copper pot I was so happy with?  Yup, it was joined with lead solder. I can remove a lot of it with a propane torch, but there will still be a glaze where the solder was origionally.  My plan is it remove as much as possibe, then redo the joints with a silver solder.  Taking the thing apart is impossible as the seams are folded togeather. Any adivce on removing the old solder would be great.

Response:

I believe that simple brazing solvents may remove the lead solder. I recall that a medium-strength hydrochloric acid (denatured with zinc sometimes?) is used to clean metal. I think it will clean the softer metals like tin and solder (= tin and lead) from copper without eating the copper. Talk to your local friendly Tim The Toolman… There’s got to be something out there which will remove all visible lead solder. Any solder remaining inside the folded seams would probably be irrelevant once the copper is re-tinned (that’s the slang) with a silver solder. Another thought – plumbers use solder for joining copper pipes, andI think that’s 50% lead. So is this really an issue? Perhaps it becomes an issue when the pot is used for boiling, huh? — Space Corps Directive #147 Crew members are expressly forbidden from leaving their vessel except on production of a permit. Permits can only be issued by the Chief Navigation Officer, who is expressly forbidden from issuing them except on production of a permit.     — Red Dwarf

Response:

That copper pot I was so happy with?  Yup, it was joined with lead solder. I can remove a lot of it with a propane torch, but there will still be a glaze where the solder was origionally.  My plan is it remove as much as possibe, then redo the joints with a silver solder.  Taking the thing apart is impossible as the seams are folded togeather. Any adivce on removing the old solder would be great.

Response:

Question:

What is your experience with Starlix and Insulin.  I don’t find a thing listed for the use of the two.  Other orals, yes!  Insulin no. I am going to give it a try starting this evening with the hope of lowering my Insulin intake from my tried and true pump. Thanks, Lurline4 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dixie, There is a tremendous amount of variability in this. I’ve never seen a 4% number attached. I would have suggested a higher number, like 15%, but honestly I’ve never seen *any* number printed. There is too much individual variation for it to be relevant. Once a type 2 is on insulin, it seems like 100% to them. Best wishes, William C Biggs, MD The figure that comes to mind is 4% loss of function of the pancreas per year. I know that there is concern about "insulin burnout" , but it appears this process is going to happen no matter what you do. an interesting "hear hear" to all t2 insulin users

Response:

Gee, at four percent per year and with my DM at the 25 year mark it is no wonder my C-Peptide shows nothing exciting going on. Lurline4 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The figure that comes to mind is 4% loss of function of the pancreas per year. I know that there is concern about "insulin burnout" , but it appears this process is going to happen no matter what you do. an interesting "hear hear" to all t2 insulin users

Response:

Amazing!  I have taken Human Insulins all my diabetic life and seem to be doing quite well. I have never had animal Insulin and never will take it.  There is no need for it as we have modern science that has given us a far better product. Lurline4 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tammi, The "natural history" of type 2 DM is one where the pancreas gradually loses it’s ability to secrete insulin. By the time you are diagnosed, this is already occurring. Thus it’s not clear if currently available meds modify this trend in any way. Looking at the studies on insulin secretion for metformin vs glyburide for instance, the remaining insulin production appears to be about the same between the two of them. I know that there is concern about "insulin burnout" , but it appears this process is going to happen no matter what you do. an interesting "hear hear" to all t2 insulin users It was hoped that insulin sensitizers like Rezulin, Avandia, Actos would prevent "insulin burnout". A study with Rezulin was underway when it was withdrawn from the market, and we will see later if Avandia & Actos have any benefit in this regard. After using Avandia and Actos for a couple years, I am not impressed that they have a striking benefit in this regard, however this could be due to a patient selection bias. Starlix is too new to know whether is makes this problem better or worse. We have nothing at this point to suggest it will make your pancreas burnout any sooner. The most promising investigational drugs in this arena are GLP-1 analogs, such as exendin-4 which appears to stimulate insulin secretion in a glucose dependent manner. There is speculation here that exendin-4 may stimulate beta cell mass as well. The Gila Monster only eats in April and May, and fasts in dormancy the rest of the year. Thus it needs a hormone to rapidly increase insulin generating capacity in April and May, and still keep very low insulin levels the rest of the year. Exendin-4 seems to do that for the Gila Monster. Phase -III trials are starting soon. However reams of papers are generated each year on premature beta cell death in type 2 DM, and why. yup and most of these t2’s are near the end of their life right???? which raise an interesting question: does some subset of these t2’s in fact do better on animal insulin than on the latest/greatest all ears, bill t1 since ‘57 It is clear that the reason is still elusive. If we could identify an intervention that would prevent the loss of beta cell function in type 2, we could essentially cure the disease. We could improve resistance with currently available agents, and have the bodies own pancreatic beta cells secrete sufficient amounts of insulin to maintain good glucose control. Thanks for your comments & best wishes, William C Biggs, MD I’ve been on Starlix for three months now, and it has been working fabulously. I have to be very careful about going too low after a meal, though.  I bring hard candies w/me everywhere I go.  If my meal is low carb, I don’t take one. I am concerned about "burning out my pancreas" as so many people are. Will this drug contribute to that problem?  I take it w/every meal unless the meal is low carb. Thanks, and Dr. Biggs, your contributions on this site are invaluable! Tammi T2 since 1977 (onset around age 16 w/no strong family history and a non-diabetic identical twin) Diana, Your post was of interest to me. Starlix , chemically, should be inert to the kidneys.  It’s one of the few diabetes drugs besides insulin that we can safely give in end stage kidney disease or while on dialysis. Do your docs attribute the kidney problems to the Starlix, or was something else going on ? If they attribute the kidney disease to the Starlix, did they file an FDA report ?  So far, I haven’t heard about anything like this. I realize that you may want to keep any details private. If so, that’s OK. If I get even a possible adverse effect on a drug, new or old, I make a report, and let the FDA decide whether or not it is relevant. OTOH, sometimes when a problem like liver disease or kidney disease comes up, we need to stop all possible suspected drugs that might be causing the problem. And new drugs get stopped just because there is less data on them, whether or not they are really causing the problem. Hope you are doing OK now, William C Biggs, MD Lurline I was on it for about a month and I was having really bad kidney problems and had to go off of it and now I am on Glucovance but YMMV. I wish you lots of success on it. Diana — If you judge people, you will have no time to love them Please Visit This Wonderful Grief Group Site Built by Stephen Taylor http://griefgroup.home.att.net/ : Has anyone taken Starlix with any success. : I would be taking it in conjunction with Humalog Insulin.  I am certain : a discussion of this drug took place but I can’t find anything on it. : Any serious side effects? : Thanks, : Lurline

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bill, The "natural history" of type 2 DM is one where the pancreas gradually loses it’s ability to secrete insulin. By the time you are diagnosed, this is already occurring. Thus it’s not clear if currently available meds modify this trend in any way. Looking at the studies on insulin secretion for metformin vs glyburide for instance, the remaining insulin production appears to be about the same between the two of them. I know that there is concern about "insulin burnout" , but it appears this process is going to happen no matter what you do. It was hoped that insulin sensitizers like Rezulin, Avandia, Actos would prevent "insulin burnout". A study with Rezulin was underway when it was withdrawn from the market, and we will see later if Avandia & Actos have any benefit in this regard. After using Avandia and Actos for a couple years, I am not impressed that they have a striking benefit in this regard, however this could be due to a patient selection bias. <snip However reams of papers are generated each year on premature beta cell death in type 2 DM, and why. and most of these t2’s are near the end of their life right???? No. Not any more than type 1’s. which raise an interesting question: does some subset of these t2’s in fact do better on animal insulin than on the latest/greatest There is no evidence to support that at all. Type 2’s are generally easier to control and rarely have significant hypos.

what about those t2’s who are longer-term into the disease? some of them lose all or most of their beta cell function, right? so some of them must then become more like t1’s in having to micro-manage their t2 diabetes, right? bill t1 since ‘57

Response:

Dixie, I would estimate 10 – 15 % of people don’t tolerate Glucophage for various reasons. The most common are GI side effects like cramps or diarrhea, but some people just feel "yuck" . It sounds like that is what you had. You are not alone. The XR form might help the GI side effects, but not the others. Those glucose levels are high. I’d encourage you to work with your DM team on getting that down. Good luck, William C Biggs, MD

Hi, I tried Starlix and it didn’t do much for me. Same with Actos and Avandia. I have gone back on Prandin, and take doses and eat no carbs and it brings my sugars down from

fasting at 200-250 to 100-130 before supper. If I take it before a regular meal it seems to have

little effect. I think my fastings are improving on this routine a bit, too. Dr. Biggs…I have a question about Glucophage. Do you have many patients

who cannot take it? I tried it about 4 years ago, and as I worked up to a theraputic dose, I

felt worse and worse. I couldn’t hardly get out of bed. I just tried the new XR form last week and

I was totally messed up. Dizzy, weak, trouble walking, blurred vision. I realize these are listed

possible side effects, but how much of this do you see? I also have Fibromyalgia/Chronic Fatigue

Syndrome and I thought that was the problem,  but I read some postings on the Fibromyalgia group from diabetics that took Glucophage and they felt better than they had in awhile. Any input? Thanks

for listening! Dixie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Dixie, There is a tremendous amount of variability in this. I’ve never seen a 4% number attached. I would have suggested a higher number, like 15%, but honestly I’ve never seen *any* number printed. There is too much individual variation for it to be relevant. Once a type 2 is on insulin, it seems like 100% to them. Best wishes, William C Biggs, MD

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The figure that comes to mind is 4% loss of function of the pancreas per year. I know that there is concern about "insulin burnout" , but it appears this process is going to happen no matter what you do. an interesting "hear hear" to all t2 insulin users

Response:

The figure that comes to mind is 4% loss of function of the pancreas per year. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know that there is concern about "insulin burnout" , but it appears this process is going to happen no matter what you do. an interesting "hear hear" to all t2 insulin users

Response:

Bill,

and most of these t2’s are near the end of their life right????

No. Not any more than type 1’s. which raise an interesting question: does some subset of these t2’s in fact do better on animal insulin than on the latest/greatest

There is no evidence to support that at all. Type 2’s are generally easier to control and rarely have significant hypos. I would rather keep this thread on track, since it is about type 2’s and oral agents, rather than once again enter into a beef vs. the world harangue again. Thanks, William C Biggs, MD

Response:

Tammi, The "natural history" of type 2 DM is one where the pancreas gradually loses it’s ability to secrete insulin. By the time you are diagnosed, this is already occurring. Thus it’s not clear if currently available meds modify this trend in any way. Looking at the studies on insulin secretion for metformin vs glyburide for instance, the remaining insulin production appears to be about the same between the two of them. I know that there is concern about "insulin burnout" , but it appears this process is going to happen no matter what you do.

an interesting "hear hear" to all t2 insulin users – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It was hoped that insulin sensitizers like Rezulin, Avandia, Actos would prevent "insulin burnout". A study with Rezulin was underway when it was withdrawn from the market, and we will see later if Avandia & Actos have any benefit in this regard. After using Avandia and Actos for a couple years, I am not impressed that they have a striking benefit in this regard, however this could be due to a patient selection bias. Starlix is too new to know whether is makes this problem better or worse. We have nothing at this point to suggest it will make your pancreas burnout any sooner. The most promising investigational drugs in this arena are GLP-1 analogs, such as exendin-4 which appears to stimulate insulin secretion in a glucose dependent manner. There is speculation here that exendin-4 may stimulate beta cell mass as well. The Gila Monster only eats in April and May, and fasts in dormancy the rest of the year. Thus it needs a hormone to rapidly increase insulin generating capacity in April and May, and still keep very low insulin levels the rest of the year. Exendin-4 seems to do that for the Gila Monster. Phase -III trials are starting soon. However reams of papers are generated each year on premature beta cell death in type 2 DM, and why.

yup and most of these t2’s are near the end of their life right???? which raise an interesting question: does some subset of these t2’s in fact do better on animal insulin than on the latest/greatest all ears, bill t1 since ‘57 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is clear that the reason is still elusive. If we could identify an intervention that would prevent the loss of beta cell function in type 2, we could essentially cure the disease. We could improve resistance with currently available agents, and have the bodies own pancreatic beta cells secrete sufficient amounts of insulin to maintain good glucose control. Thanks for your comments & best wishes, William C Biggs, MD I’ve been on Starlix for three months now, and it has been working fabulously. I have to be very careful about going too low after a meal, though.  I bring hard candies w/me everywhere I go.  If my meal is low carb, I don’t take one. I am concerned about "burning out my pancreas" as so many people are. Will this drug contribute to that problem?  I take it w/every meal unless the meal is low carb. Thanks, and Dr. Biggs, your contributions on this site are invaluable! Tammi T2 since 1977 (onset around age 16 w/no strong family history and a non-diabetic identical twin) Diana, Your post was of interest to me. Starlix , chemically, should be inert to the kidneys.  It’s one of the few diabetes drugs besides insulin that we can safely give in end stage kidney disease or while on dialysis. Do your docs attribute the kidney problems to the Starlix, or was something else going on ? If they attribute the kidney disease to the Starlix, did they file an FDA report ?  So far, I haven’t heard about anything like this. I realize that you may want to keep any details private. If so, that’s OK. If I get even a possible adverse effect on a drug, new or old, I make a report, and let the FDA decide whether or not it is relevant. OTOH, sometimes when a problem like liver disease or kidney disease comes up, we need to stop all possible suspected drugs that might be causing the problem. And new drugs get stopped just because there is less data on them, whether or not they are really causing the problem. Hope you are doing OK now, William C Biggs, MD Lurline I was on it for about a month and I was having really bad kidney problems and had to go off of it and now I am on Glucovance but YMMV. I wish you lots of success on it. Diana — If you judge people, you will have no time to love them Please Visit This Wonderful Grief Group Site Built by Stephen Taylor http://griefgroup.home.att.net/ : Has anyone taken Starlix with any success. : I would be taking it in conjunction with Humalog Insulin.  I am certain : a discussion of this drug took place but I can’t find anything on it. : Any serious side effects? : Thanks, : Lurline

Response:

I have a friend who takes no meds except when she knows she is going to break her diet at a special occasion she takes Starlix. As always, such things should not be tried without a doctor’s advice. — Wes Groleau http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau

Response:

Hi, I tried Starlix and it didn’t do much for me. Same with Actos and Avandia. I have gone back on Prandin, and take doses and eat no carbs and it brings my sugars down from fasting at 200-250 to 100-130 before supper. If I take it before a regular meal it seems to have little effect. I think my fastings are improving on this routine a bit, too. Dr. Biggs…I have a question about Glucophage. Do you have many patients who cannot take it? I tried it about 4 years ago, and as I worked up to a theraputic dose, I felt worse and worse. I couldn’t hardly get out of bed. I just tried the new XR form last week and I was totally messed up. Dizzy, weak, trouble walking, blurred vision. I realize these are listed possible side effects, but how much of this do you see? I also have Fibromyalgia/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and I thought that was the problem,  but I read some postings on the Fibromyalgia group from diabetics that took Glucophage and they felt better than they had in awhile. Any input? Thanks for listening! Dixie

Response:

Do you take Insulin with this drug? Thanks, Lurline4 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been on Starlix for three months now, and it has been working fabulously. I have to be very careful about going too low after a meal, though.  I bring hard candies w/me everywhere I go.  If my meal is low carb, I don’t take one. I am concerned about "burning out my pancreas" as so many people are.  Will this drug contribute to that problem?  I take it w/every meal unless the meal is low carb. Thanks, and Dr. Biggs, your contributions on this site are invaluable! Tammi T2 since 1977 (onset around age 16 w/no strong family history and a non-diabetic identical twin) Diana, Your post was of interest to me. Starlix , chemically, should be inert to the kidneys.  It’s one of the few diabetes drugs besides insulin that we can safely give in end stage kidney disease or while on dialysis. Do your docs attribute the kidney problems to the Starlix, or was something else going on ? If they attribute the kidney disease to the Starlix, did they file an FDA report ?  So far, I haven’t heard about anything like this. I realize that you may want to keep any details private. If so, that’s OK. If I get even a possible adverse effect on a drug, new or old, I make a report, and let the FDA decide whether or not it is relevant. OTOH, sometimes when a problem like liver disease or kidney disease comes up, we need to stop all possible suspected drugs that might be causing the problem. And new drugs get stopped just because there is less data on them, whether or not they are really causing the problem. Hope you are doing OK now, William C Biggs, MD Lurline I was on it for about a month and I was having really bad kidney problems and had to go off of it and now I am on Glucovance but YMMV. I wish you lots of success on it. Diana — If you judge people, you will have no time to love them Please Visit This Wonderful Grief Group Site Built by Stephen Taylor http://griefgroup.home.att.net/ : Has anyone taken Starlix with any success. : I would be taking it in conjunction with Humalog Insulin.  I am certain : a discussion of this drug took place but I can’t find anything on it. : Any serious side effects? : Thanks, : Lurline :

Response:

Tammi, The "natural history" of type 2 DM is one where the pancreas gradually loses it’s ability to secrete insulin. By the time you are diagnosed, this is already occurring. Thus it’s not clear if currently available meds modify this trend in any way. Looking at the studies on insulin secretion for metformin vs glyburide for instance, the remaining insulin production appears to be about the same between the two of them. I know that there is concern about "insulin burnout" , but it appears this process is going to happen no matter what you do. It was hoped that insulin sensitizers like Rezulin, Avandia, Actos would prevent "insulin burnout". A study with Rezulin was underway when it was withdrawn from the market, and we will see later if Avandia & Actos have any benefit in this regard. After using Avandia and Actos for a couple years, I am not impressed that they have a striking benefit in this regard, however this could be due to a patient selection bias. Starlix is too new to know whether is makes this problem better or worse. We have nothing at this point to suggest it will make your pancreas burnout any sooner. The most promising investigational drugs in this arena are GLP-1 analogs, such as exendin-4 which appears to stimulate insulin secretion in a glucose dependent manner. There is speculation here that exendin-4 may stimulate beta cell mass as well. The Gila Monster only eats in April and May, and fasts in dormancy the rest of the year. Thus it needs a hormone to rapidly increase insulin generating capacity in April and May, and still keep very low insulin levels the rest of the year. Exendin-4 seems to do that for the Gila Monster. Phase -III trials are starting soon. However reams of papers are generated each year on premature beta cell death in type 2 DM, and why. It is clear that the reason is still elusive. If we could identify an intervention that would prevent the loss of beta cell function in type 2, we could essentially cure the disease. We could improve resistance with currently available agents, and have the bodies own pancreatic beta cells secrete sufficient amounts of insulin to maintain good glucose control. Thanks for your comments & best wishes, William C Biggs, MD

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been on Starlix for three months now, and it has been working fabulously. I have to be very careful about going too low after a meal, though.  I bring hard candies w/me everywhere I go.  If my meal is low carb, I don’t take one. I am concerned about "burning out my pancreas" as so many people are. Will this drug contribute to that problem?  I take it w/every meal unless the meal is low carb. Thanks, and Dr. Biggs, your contributions on this site are invaluable! Tammi T2 since 1977 (onset around age 16 w/no strong family history and a non-diabetic identical twin) Diana, Your post was of interest to me. Starlix , chemically, should be inert to the kidneys.  It’s one of the few diabetes drugs besides insulin that we can safely give in end stage kidney disease or while on dialysis. Do your docs attribute the kidney problems to the Starlix, or was something else going on ? If they attribute the kidney disease to the Starlix, did they file an FDA report ?  So far, I haven’t heard about anything like this. I realize that you may want to keep any details private. If so, that’s OK. If I get even a possible adverse effect on a drug, new or old, I make a report, and let the FDA decide whether or not it is relevant. OTOH, sometimes when a problem like liver disease or kidney disease comes up, we need to stop all possible suspected drugs that might be causing the problem. And new drugs get stopped just because there is less data on them, whether or not they are really causing the problem. Hope you are doing OK now, William C Biggs, MD Lurline I was on it for about a month and I was having really bad kidney problems and had to go off of it and now I am on Glucovance but YMMV. I wish you lots of success on it. Diana — If you judge people, you will have no time to love them Please Visit This Wonderful Grief Group Site Built by Stephen Taylor http://griefgroup.home.att.net/ : Has anyone taken Starlix with any success. : I would be taking it in conjunction with Humalog Insulin.  I am certain : a discussion of this drug took place but I can’t find anything on it. : Any serious side effects? : Thanks, : Lurline :

Response:

Yes he is very welcome with his contributions IMO too. Helps to have a doctor on board. :-) I wanted it to work for me so bad. I am on lots of other meds though and it just didn’t mix with one of them. I am glad you are doing good on it. I myself do like the Glucovance as it seems to be doing great for me. I would like to welcome Dr. Biggs too and say thanks. Di — If you judge people, you will have no time to love them Please Visit This Wonderful Grief Group Site Built by Stephen Taylor http://griefgroup.home.att.net/

: I’ve been on Starlix for three months now, and it has been working : fabulously. : : I have to be very careful about going too low after a meal, though. I bring : hard candies w/me everywhere I go.  If my meal is low carb, I don’t take : one. : : I am concerned about "burning out my pancreas" as so many people are.  Will : this drug contribute to that problem?  I take it w/every meal unless the : meal is low carb. : : Thanks, and Dr. Biggs, your contributions on this site are invaluable! : : Tammi : T2 since 1977 (onset around age 16 w/no strong family history and a : non-diabetic identical twin) : message : Diana, : : Your post was of interest to me. : : Starlix , chemically, should be inert to the kidneys.  It’s one of the few : diabetes drugs besides insulin that we can safely give in end stage kidney : disease or while on dialysis. : : Do your docs attribute the kidney problems to the Starlix, or was : something : else going on ? : : If they attribute the kidney disease to the Starlix, did they file an FDA : report ?  So far, I haven’t heard about anything like this. : : I realize that you may want to keep any details private. If so, that’s OK. : If I get even a possible adverse effect on a drug, new or old, I make a : report, and let the FDA decide whether or not it is relevant. : : OTOH, sometimes when a problem like liver disease or kidney disease comes : up, we need to stop all possible suspected drugs that might be causing the : problem. And new drugs get stopped just because there is less data on : them, : whether or not they are really causing the problem. : : Hope you are doing OK now, : : William C Biggs, MD : : : : : : Lurline : I was on it for about a month and I was having really bad kidney : problems and had to go off of it and now I am on Glucovance but YMMV. : I wish you lots of success on it. : Diana : : — : If you judge people, you will have no time to love them : : Please Visit This Wonderful Grief Group Site Built by Stephen Taylor : http://griefgroup.home.att.net/ : : Has anyone taken Starlix with any success. : : I would be taking it in conjunction with Humalog Insulin.  I am : certain : : a discussion of this drug took place but I can’t find anything on : it. : : Any serious side effects? : : Thanks, : : Lurline : : : : : : : : : :

Response:

I’ve been on Starlix for three months now, and it has been working fabulously. I have to be very careful about going too low after a meal, though.  I bring hard candies w/me everywhere I go.  If my meal is low carb, I don’t take one. I am concerned about "burning out my pancreas" as so many people are.  Will this drug contribute to that problem?  I take it w/every meal unless the meal is low carb. Thanks, and Dr. Biggs, your contributions on this site are invaluable! Tammi T2 since 1977 (onset around age 16 w/no strong family history and a non-diabetic identical twin) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Diana, Your post was of interest to me. Starlix , chemically, should be inert to the kidneys.  It’s one of the few diabetes drugs besides insulin that we can safely give in end stage kidney disease or while on dialysis. Do your docs attribute the kidney problems to the Starlix, or was something else going on ? If they attribute the kidney disease to the Starlix, did they file an FDA report ?  So far, I haven’t heard about anything like this. I realize that you may want to keep any details private. If so, that’s OK. If I get even a possible adverse effect on a drug, new or old, I make a report, and let the FDA decide whether or not it is relevant. OTOH, sometimes when a problem like liver disease or kidney disease comes up, we need to stop all possible suspected drugs that might be causing the problem. And new drugs get stopped just because there is less data on them, whether or not they are really causing the problem. Hope you are doing OK now, William C Biggs, MD Lurline I was on it for about a month and I was having really bad kidney problems and had to go off of it and now I am on Glucovance but YMMV. I wish you lots of success on it. Diana — If you judge people, you will have no time to love them Please Visit This Wonderful Grief Group Site Built by Stephen Taylor http://griefgroup.home.att.net/ : Has anyone taken Starlix with any success. : I would be taking it in conjunction with Humalog Insulin.  I am certain : a discussion of this drug took place but I can’t find anything on it. : Any serious side effects? : Thanks, : Lurline :

Response:

Hi When I first went on Starlix soon after within days I starting having severe pain in my side and it kept going and the doctor never could see me as she was over booked. I believe one of my medications didn’t mix well just with the research I have done and when I asked a pharmacist just when out one day. I had hoped the Starlix would work for me as my doctor was really for it. The nurse practitioner is the one who actually let me go on it at my request and also changed me at my request because I couldn’t take the pain anymore. Within days of stopping the pain left also and no trouble since. As for reports, to be honest I really don’t know what they did or didn’t do as my physician doesn’t talk to me about things like that. She does seem very capable though and I am sure she would have done what was necessary. I do think it was a drug interaction as I am on so many different things but I don’t remember which one was not to be mixed with it. I wish I could help more but I can’t. As far as testing to see if I was going into failure no I haven’t had anything like that. It was just symptoms that the doctor and myself were going on. Up til now my Renal panels have been normal. I haven’t had blood work yet since before the Starlix. I am due to have it done in about a week or so. To be honest, I am also in search of another physician who will listen and not want to blame things on my weight so much. Lots of things I really don’t want to go into because it isn’t diabetes related but do warrant another physician’s opinion. Thanks for your concern and I am doing really well at the moment other than the Pain and numbness I have had for seven years with my back injury that they want to blame on my weight also. I was even told by one physician that nothing was wrong with me that losing weight would not cure. Needless to say I went to him only the one time. Thanks for listening Diana — If you judge people, you will have no time to love them Please Visit This Wonderful Grief Group Site Built by Stephen Taylor http://griefgroup.home.att.net/ : Diana, : : Your post was of interest to me. : : Starlix , chemically, should be inert to the kidneys.  It’s one of the few : diabetes drugs besides insulin that we can safely give in end stage kidney : disease or while on dialysis. : : Do your docs attribute the kidney problems to the Starlix, or was something : else going on ? : : If they attribute the kidney disease to the Starlix, did they file an FDA : report ?  So far, I haven’t heard about anything like this. : : I realize that you may want to keep any details private. If so, that’s OK. : If I get even a possible adverse effect on a drug, new or old, I make a : report, and let the FDA decide whether or not it is relevant. : : OTOH, sometimes when a problem like liver disease or kidney disease comes : up, we need to stop all possible suspected drugs that might be causing the : problem. And new drugs get stopped just because there is less data on them, : whether or not they are really causing the problem. : : Hope you are doing OK now, : : William C Biggs, MD : : : : :

: Lurline : I was on it for about a month and I was having really bad kidney : problems and had to go off of it and now I am on Glucovance but YMMV. : I wish you lots of success on it. : Diana : : — : If you judge people, you will have no time to love them : : Please Visit This Wonderful Grief Group Site Built by Stephen Taylor : http://griefgroup.home.att.net/

: : Has anyone taken Starlix with any success. : : I would be taking it in conjunction with Humalog Insulin.  I am : certain : : a discussion of this drug took place but I can’t find anything on : it. : : Any serious side effects? : : Thanks, : : Lurline : : : : : :

Response:

Has anyone taken Starlix with any success. I would be taking it in conjunction with Humalog Insulin.  I am certain a discussion of this drug took place but I can’t find anything on

it. http://groups.google.com/groups?q=diana+starlix&meta=site%3Dgroups if you can’t open this page search on diana starlix http://groups.google.com

Response:

Diana, Your post was of interest to me. Starlix , chemically, should be inert to the kidneys.  It’s one of the few diabetes drugs besides insulin that we can safely give in end stage kidney disease or while on dialysis. Do your docs attribute the kidney problems to the Starlix, or was something else going on ? If they attribute the kidney disease to the Starlix, did they file an FDA report ?  So far, I haven’t heard about anything like this. I realize that you may want to keep any details private. If so, that’s OK. If I get even a possible adverse effect on a drug, new or old, I make a report, and let the FDA decide whether or not it is relevant. OTOH, sometimes when a problem like liver disease or kidney disease comes up, we need to stop all possible suspected drugs that might be causing the problem. And new drugs get stopped just because there is less data on them, whether or not they are really causing the problem. Hope you are doing OK now, William C Biggs, MD

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lurline I was on it for about a month and I was having really bad kidney problems and had to go off of it and now I am on Glucovance but YMMV. I wish you lots of success on it. Diana — If you judge people, you will have no time to love them Please Visit This Wonderful Grief Group Site Built by Stephen Taylor http://griefgroup.home.att.net/ : Has anyone taken Starlix with any success. : I would be taking it in conjunction with Humalog Insulin.  I am certain : a discussion of this drug took place but I can’t find anything on it. : Any serious side effects? : Thanks, : Lurline :

Response:

Thank you, you too. Lurline4 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You are more than welcome and I too do this now. I was scared half to death when it happened but doing so much better now. You take good care of yourself. Di — If you judge people, you will have no time to love them Please Visit This Wonderful Grief Group Site Built by Stephen Taylor http://griefgroup.home.att.net/ : Diana, : Thank you and sorry you were troubled with this medication.  This is the : very reason I always (now) research any drug I use. : Lurline : : : No I have always had good blood tests and when on the Starlix mine : started shutting down. I was in severe pain and almost landed in the : hospital. As soon as I told the doctor what was going on she : immediately took me off and said that it is one of the side effects. I : hope it works for you if you decide to go on it. I had hoped it would : be a miracle for me but actually the Glucovance has turned out to be a : great thing for me. Best Wishes in whatever you decide. : Diana : : — : If you judge people, you will have no time to love them : : Please Visit This Wonderful Grief Group Site Built by Stephen Taylor : http://griefgroup.home.att.net/ : : Haven’t started it yet just looking into it. : : Did you have prior kidney disease. : : Thanks, : : Lurline : : : : : : Lurline : : I was on it for about a month and I was having really bad kidney : : problems and had to go off of it and now I am on Glucovance but : YMMV. : : I wish you lots of success on it. : : Diana : : : : — : : If you judge people, you will have no time to love them : : : : Please Visit This Wonderful Grief Group Site Built by Stephen : Taylor : : http://griefgroup.home.att.net/ : : : Has anyone taken Starlix with any success. : : : I would be taking it in conjunction with Humalog Insulin.  I am : : certain : : : a discussion of this drug took place but I can’t find anything : on : : it. : : : Any serious side effects? : : : Thanks, : : : Lurline : : : : : :

Response:

You are more than welcome and I too do this now. I was scared half to death when it happened but doing so much better now. You take good care of yourself. Di — If you judge people, you will have no time to love them Please Visit This Wonderful Grief Group Site Built by Stephen Taylor http://griefgroup.home.att.net/

: Diana, : Thank you and sorry you were troubled with this medication.  This is the : very reason I always (now) research any drug I use. : Lurline :

: : No I have always had good blood tests and when on the Starlix mine : started shutting down. I was in severe pain and almost landed in the : hospital. As soon as I told the doctor what was going on she : immediately took me off and said that it is one of the side effects. I : hope it works for you if you decide to go on it. I had hoped it would : be a miracle for me but actually the Glucovance has turned out to be a : great thing for me. Best Wishes in whatever you decide. : Diana : : — : If you judge people, you will have no time to love them : : Please Visit This Wonderful Grief Group Site Built by Stephen Taylor : http://griefgroup.home.att.net/

: : Haven’t started it yet just looking into it. : : Did you have prior kidney disease. : : Thanks, : : Lurline : : : : : : Lurline : : I was on it for about a month and I was having really bad kidney : : problems and had to go off of it and now I am on Glucovance but : YMMV. : : I wish you lots of success on it. : : Diana : : : : — : : If you judge people, you will have no time to love them : : : : Please Visit This Wonderful Grief Group Site Built by Stephen : Taylor : : http://griefgroup.home.att.net/ : : : Has anyone taken Starlix with any success. : : : I would be taking it in conjunction with Humalog Insulin.  I am : : certain : : : a discussion of this drug took place but I can’t find anything : on : : it. : : : Any serious side effects? : : : Thanks, : : : Lurline : : : : : :

Response:

Diana, Thank you and sorry you were troubled with this medication.  This is the very reason I always (now) research any drug I use. Lurline – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No I have always had good blood tests and when on the Starlix mine started shutting down. I was in severe pain and almost landed in the hospital. As soon as I told the doctor what was going on she immediately took me off and said that it is one of the side effects. I hope it works for you if you decide to go on it. I had hoped it would be a miracle for me but actually the Glucovance has turned out to be a great thing for me. Best Wishes in whatever you decide. Diana — If you judge people, you will have no time to love them Please Visit This Wonderful Grief Group Site Built by Stephen Taylor http://griefgroup.home.att.net/ : Haven’t started it yet just looking into it. : Did you have prior kidney disease. : Thanks, : Lurline : : : Lurline : I was on it for about a month and I was having really bad kidney : problems and had to go off of it and now I am on Glucovance but YMMV. : I wish you lots of success on it. : Diana : : — : If you judge people, you will have no time to love them : : Please Visit This Wonderful Grief Group Site Built by Stephen Taylor : http://griefgroup.home.att.net/ : : Has anyone taken Starlix with any success. : : I would be taking it in conjunction with Humalog Insulin.  I am : certain : : a discussion of this drug took place but I can’t find anything on : it. : : Any serious side effects? : : Thanks, : : Lurline : : :

Response:

No I have always had good blood tests and when on the Starlix mine started shutting down. I was in severe pain and almost landed in the hospital. As soon as I told the doctor what was going on she immediately took me off and said that it is one of the side effects. I hope it works for you if you decide to go on it. I had hoped it would be a miracle for me but actually the Glucovance has turned out to be a great thing for me. Best Wishes in whatever you decide. Diana — If you judge people, you will have no time to love them Please Visit This Wonderful Grief Group Site Built by Stephen Taylor http://griefgroup.home.att.net/

: Haven’t started it yet just looking into it. : Did you have prior kidney disease. : Thanks, : Lurline :

: : Lurline : I was on it for about a month and I was having really bad kidney : problems and had to go off of it and now I am on Glucovance but YMMV. : I wish you lots of success on it. : Diana : : — : If you judge people, you will have no time to love them : : Please Visit This Wonderful Grief Group Site Built by Stephen Taylor : http://griefgroup.home.att.net/

: : Has anyone taken Starlix with any success. : : I would be taking it in conjunction with Humalog Insulin.  I am : certain : : a discussion of this drug took place but I can’t find anything on : it. : : Any serious side effects? : : Thanks, : : Lurline : : :

Response:

Has anyone taken Starlix with any success. I would be taking it in conjunction with Humalog Insulin.  I am certain a discussion of this drug took place but I can’t find anything on it. Any serious side effects? Thanks, Lurline

Response:

Lurline I was on it for about a month and I was having really bad kidney problems and had to go off of it and now I am on Glucovance but YMMV. I wish you lots of success on it. Diana — If you judge people, you will have no time to love them Please Visit This Wonderful Grief Group Site Built by Stephen Taylor http://griefgroup.home.att.net/

: Has anyone taken Starlix with any success. : I would be taking it in conjunction with Humalog Insulin.  I am certain : a discussion of this drug took place but I can’t find anything on it. : Any serious side effects? : Thanks, : Lurline :

Response:

Haven’t started it yet just looking into it. Did you have prior kidney disease. Thanks, Lurline – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lurline I was on it for about a month and I was having really bad kidney problems and had to go off of it and now I am on Glucovance but YMMV. I wish you lots of success on it. Diana — If you judge people, you will have no time to love them Please Visit This Wonderful Grief Group Site Built by Stephen Taylor http://griefgroup.home.att.net/ : Has anyone taken Starlix with any success. : I would be taking it in conjunction with Humalog Insulin.  I am certain : a discussion of this drug took place but I can’t find anything on it. : Any serious side effects? : Thanks, : Lurline :

Response:

Question:

First of all, neither Celebrex nor Vioxx are lupus medications.  The main use is for arthritis or joint pain.  Other than that, I don’t know that either one is very useful for lupus symptoms in general.  Celebrex is a sulfa drug and as such many people with lupus can’t tolerate it.  If you’re sensitive to sulfa drugs, then taking Celebrex could actually cause flareups.  That’s perhaps why a different doctor wanted to switch you to Vioxx, which isn’t a sulfa drug, but is equivalent to Celebrex in effectiveness.  In fact, my daughter takes Vioxx too, though just to help her out with joint problems, not for her lupus in general.   As for your lupus, I think you really need to get a copy of the labs that have been done.  That way you can post your results and some of us here can help you out with understanding them.  I’m very sure that if your rheumatologist diagnosed lupus so easily, there must have been some other positive antibody studies in addition to the ANA at the very least, such as anti-dsDNA which is very specific for lupus (99% specificity) and is positive in about 50% of people with lupus.  Without other positive antibodies, most people have a very difficult time getting diagnosed.  ANA itself you see, is not specific for lupus.  While almost everyone with lupus tests positive for ANA at some point, there are also many other types of autoimmune diseases which can also have a positive ANA.  It can even be positive along with some viruses and in a few normal individuals.  Therefore, ANA is more often used to rule out lupus rather than diagnose it.  If you aren’t ANA positive, then the odds of having lupus go way down.  If you are ANA positive, especially if the titer is in a moderate range, and you’re symptomatic, then they do more testing.  In your case, other things must have come up in your bloodwork which led the rheumatologist to diagnose lupus.  As I said earlier, at the very least, there had to be some other positive antibodies to come up with a diagnosis so quickly.   BTW, did your doctor specifically tell you whether your kidneys are okay or not?  Kidney disease is very prevalent with lupus, so you need to find this out.  If your kidneys are okay and you don’t have any other major organ involvement, then perhaps you could bring up the possibility of trying Plaquenil.  It’s a very mild lupus medication and might be just the thing to help you keep functioning at a high level.  You can take it along with Vioxx or Celebrex as well.   If it’s not going to be possible to see a rheumatologist on a frequent basis because of your insurance, you might see if your PCP can do most of the maintenance and just consult with the rheumatologist a couple times a year, or even once a year if that’s all you can manage.  If your lupus is mild, then I suspect you could get away with doing it this way.  I’ve heard of others in a similar situation with insurance who did this.  If you’d like to try something like that though, you’ll need to discuss it with your doctors and see if they can come to an agreement on it.  Hopefully they would be willing to work together.   In the meantime, you should probably start learning all you can about lupus. You’ll get much better care if you’re very informed.  I recommend starting with Dr. Wallace’s THE LUPUS BOOK, rev. ed.  It’s been nicknamed "the lupus bible" because the information is so extensive and so useful.  There are many other books on lupus, but this is quite simply the best.  You might also check out these websites: Lupus Foundation of America (Lots of current information and support groups.) http://internet-plaza.net/lupus/ Lupus Around the World (ONE OF MY FAVORITES! Great search function, Ask a Doc, and support groups.) http://www.mtio.com/lupus North East Lupus Group Homepage (Andy Taylor’s Page) (One of the best lupus websites around.) http://www.kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk/lupus/index.htm About.com (Literally tons of information and links on many other topics as well.) http://lupus.about.com/health/lupus/ Sandra

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Hey All, So here’s the deal, firstly I want to thank all of you for you timely helpful responses before and of course I have another question, but a lengthy one–sorry. In Novemeber of last year while away at school I was experiecning some joint pains, ranging from discomfort to times where I couldn’t get out of bed.  My priomarary doctor ran some blood tests and found that I had a positive ANA and some other things(I don’t really remember specifics–sorry), because I was still in the midst of the semester it was only in December when I came home for Christmas break that she finally sent me to the rheumatoglist, who looked over my blood work asked me some questions, said I had systemic Lupus and gave me celebrex .  He then said if the pains persisted, then I should see a rheumatologist up at school, because of the distance he was unwilling to perscribe anything without my being able to see him, more regularly.  But none of that mattered because the celebrex was working and I was feeling okay again. Then I started to feel worse and the celebrex wasn’t working and finding a rheumatologist near school that my insurance would cover was impossible, so I ended up skipping some classes and coming home to see the doctor, who couldn’t really do anything without more blood tests, so he increased the dosage on the Celebrex and sent me back to school.  So I finished out the spring semester and came home and scheduled an appointment to see how things were going iternally and the like only to find out he was closing his practice and I would once again have to find another doctor. So I found a new rheumatologist who asks me a lot of questions about how I feel and whatnot and she was kind of hinting that I might not really have lupus and I was really getting excited to hear this.  So she asks me to get all of my blood work and tells me to stop taking the celebrex and take vioxx, but my insurance company the wondrous people they are won’t give it to you, without some form being filled out, which they have to send to the doctors office and of course they haven’t.  So in between the time I first saw her and my second appointment I am a decent amount of pain, I passed out at work and I am trying to avoid the sun although I don’t believe I have ever gotten a rash.  The second time I see her she has all the blood work she starts talking about plaquenil and telling me to discuss that with my parents who are adamently against it, because of the side affects, she gives me samples of the vioxx, orders some bloodwork and says come back in three weeks, however three days later I was hopsitalized with pneumonia and can’t take the vioxx anymore. The hospital incident happened this past sunday and now its wedsnesday I am out of the hospital but my primary doctor says to stop taking the vioxx until I talk to the rheumatologist again. So my question is how the heck am I supposed to know if I have Lupus or not, because some days I am convinced and then other days I am sure I don’t.  I have never gotten a rash, but I have the joint pains and some blood work that I guess looks like I do? Now that you all know my entire life story, ;-) , I hope that perhaps you could lead me to some information that could help clarify this madness.  Sorry for the length of this post and the babbling that I am typing now–thank you. Nikki

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