Question:

I’m glad your daughter is seeing a counselor Ralph.  It sounds like she is being manipulated in this situation.  A good counselor will see through the behavior.  I hope she has a good counselor. c Glad you are back on your meds.  Your daughter will probably grow through this phase she is in and I’m sure she will want her dad around. c

I hope you are correct on all counts. Hugs, ralph

Response:

I’m glad your daughter is seeing a counselor Ralph.  It sounds like she is being manipulated in this situation.  A good counselor will see through the behavior.  I hope she has a good counselor. c Glad you are back on your meds.  Your daughter will probably grow through this phase she is in and I’m sure she will want her dad around. c

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When my son refuses to come and visit me, I consider that HIS fault – not mine. So I refuse to get depressed over something that I have no control over. Just as when it rains and gets gloomy, I refuse to let it get me down! Of course that rarely happens in El Paso. Daughter refused to come again. Has been to see a "Councilor". Son said that she siad I told her she had to wash dishes incrusted with maggots. Well 1. She never was asked to wash dishes and 2. there have never been maggots on any dishes here. Today she said she would come out and give me a hug if "I kept Bev off her ass"; but when I got there her mother wouldn’t let me even see her. Wonder Wench’s ass is going to court. Becca is in serious question of either her sanity or her honesty. It doesn’t keep me from loving my daughter, but I am disappointed in her behavior. Even if she is mad at me, it wouldn’t kill her to come out and talk with me and tell me what her reasons are. the fact that she won’t talk to me, tells me that she is ashamed of her own behavior. go into hospital for surgery on kidney stone 7/8. Going to put a scope up you know where and blast the stone with a laser. Are you sure??? Ultrasound is less invasive! But perhaps your physical condition is such that ultrasound cannot be used? Anyway I suggest that you ask your doctor. We did. I’m too fat for them to get a clear picture with the aiming x-ray machines. The scope is the only way to go. Also with the scope and stent, it minimizes scarring when the stone passes through. As a preventive for nephrolithiasis, there is a fairly effective home remedy – drinking cranberry juice or cran-apple if you can’t stand the taste of the stuff straight. That is if it isn’t against your diet. That is a misnomer. Cranberry juice actually crystallizes the stones and makes them sharper as they pass through. Cola, which I always thought was a "no-no" the doctor said was fine. Tea is the only "no-no". I am NOT looking forward to this. They made me sign a statement that it’s not their fault if I die. <grin You would have had to sign the same form if you were having an ingrown toenail removed. It’s SOP. They are making me prove that my diabetes is under control, making me do another heart stress test, and doing a test of some sort about clotting factor "just in case" the surgery gets more involved. Hugs, Ralph Be sure and have plenty of photos taken so that you can post them on the NG! Believe me, nobody wants to see my body!! I could easily be a Jabba the Hutt body double <grin Now the cat scan IS interesting, as you can see where the stone has drilled a large hole in my kidney and expanded my uriter <sp until it got stuck. You can compaire the two sides in the films/ Hugs, Ralph James

Response:

When my son refuses to come and visit me, I consider that HIS fault – not mine. So I refuse to get depressed over something that I have no control over. Just as when it rains and gets gloomy, I refuse to let it get me down! Of course that rarely happens in El Paso.

But it did tonight! We actually had a thunderstorm!!! Lightening struck close by and knocked out my cable and cable modem service. So I just shut down my computer. Daughter refused to come again. Has been to see a "Councilor". Son said that she said I told her she had to wash dishes incrusted with maggots. Well, 1. She never was asked to wash dishes and 2. There have never been maggots on any dishes here. Today she said she would come out and give me a hug if "I kept Bev off her ass"; but when I got there her mother wouldn’t let me even see her.

Obviously she is lying to make up excuses. Wonder Wench’s ass is going to court. Becca is in serious question of either her sanity or her honesty. It doesn’t keep me from loving my daughter, but I am disappointed in her behavior. Even if she is mad at me, it wouldn’t kill her to come out and talk with me and tell me what her reasons are. the fact that she won’t talk to me, tells me that she is ashamed of her own behavior.

She probably doesn’t want to have to try to justify what she knows down deep is wrong. So she avoids you. go into hospital for surgery on kidney stone 7/8. Going to put a scope up you know where and blast the stone with a laser. Are you sure??? Ultrasound is less invasive! But perhaps your physical condition is such that ultrasound cannot be used? Anyway I suggest that you ask your doctor. We did. I’m too fat for them to get a clear picture with the aiming x-ray machines. The scope is the only way to go. Also with the scope and stent, it minimizes scarring when the stone passes through.

That is most unfortunate! Ultrasound completely pulverizes the stone – so that the remanents easily pass. As a preventive for nephrolithiasis, there is a fairly effective home remedy – drinking cranberry juice or cran-apple if you can’t stand the taste of the stuff straight. That is if it isn’t against your diet. That is a misnomer. Cranberry juice actually crystallizes the stones and makes them sharper as they pass through. Cola, which I always thought was a "no-no" the doctor said was fine. Tea is the only "no-no".

That is Most Odd! I know of patients who tend to get kidney stones who were told to drink lots of cranberry juice as a preventative. I guess it all depends upon whom you talk to. I am NOT looking forward to this. They made me sign a statement that it’s not their fault if I die. <grin You would have had to sign the same form if you were having an ingrown toenail removed. It’s SOP. They are making me prove that my diabetes is under control,

I take Avandia 4 mg BID – which jump started my pancreas (after years of 3 types insulin injections 4 times daily). Then I added Glucovance 2.5/500 mg TID. The result was excellent control of my blood sugar and no further need for insulin! making me do another heart stress test, and doing a test of some sort about clotting factor "just in case" the surgery gets more involved.

You should’t take any aspirin – since it reduces the ability of your blood to clot satisfactorily. Be sure and have plenty of photos taken so that you can post them on the NG!

I was attempting to be funny. Believe me, nobody wants to see my body!! I could easily be a Jabba the Hutt body double <grin Now the cat scan IS interesting, as you can see where the stone has drilled a large hole in my kidney and expanded my ureter <sp until it got stuck. You can compare the two sides in the films. Hugs, Ralph

Wishing you all the very best from, James

Response:

Your posts are sounding a bit more upbeat today.  That’s good.  Did you start taking your meds again? c The upbeat post came before the meds. started meds friday AM, made post thursday PM.

Ralph, I am SO glad you are back on your meds!!! Hopefully daughter will visit today, Friday PM, so that I won’t get depressed again.

When my son refuses to come and visit me, I consider that HIS fault – not mine. So I refuse to get depressed over something that I have no control over. Just as when it rains and gets gloomy, I refuse to let it get me down! Of course that rarely happens in El Paso. go into hospital for surgery on kidney stone 7/8. Going to put a scope up you know where and blast the stone with a laser.

Are you sure??? Ultrasound is less invasive! But perhaps your physical condition is such that ultrasound cannot be used? Anyway I suggest that you ask your doctor. As a preventive for nephrolithiasis, there is a fairly effective home remedy – drinking cranberry juice or cran-apple if you can’t stand the taste of the stuff straight. That is if it isn’t against your diet. I am NOT looking forward to this. They made me sign a statement that it’s not their fault if I die. <grin

You would have had to sign the same form if you were having an ingrown toenail removed. It’s SOP. Hugs, Ralph

Be sure and have plenty of photos taken so that you can post them on the NG! James

Response:

When my son refuses to come and visit me, I consider that HIS fault – not mine. So I refuse to get depressed over something that I have no control over. Just as when it rains and gets gloomy, I refuse to let it get me down! Of course that rarely happens in El Paso.

Daughter refused to come again. Has been to see a "Councilor". Son said that she siad I told her she had to wash dishes incrusted with maggots. Well 1. She never was asked to wash dishes and 2. there have never been maggots on any dishes here. Today she said she would come out and give me a hug if "I kept Bev off her ass"; but when I got there her mother wouldn’t let me even see her.         Wonder Wench’s ass is going to court. Becca is in serious question of either her sanity or her honesty. It doesn’t keep me from loving my daughter, but I am disappointed in her behavior. Even if she is mad at me, it wouldn’t kill her to come out and talk with me and tell me what her reasons are. the fact that she won’t talk to me, tells me that she is ashamed of her own behavior. go into hospital for surgery on kidney stone 7/8. Going to put a scope up you know where and blast the stone with a laser. Are you sure??? Ultrasound is less invasive! But perhaps your physical condition is such that ultrasound cannot be used? Anyway I suggest that you ask your doctor.

We did. I’m too fat for them to get a clear picture with the aiming x-ray machines. The scope is the only way to go. Also with the scope and stent, it minimizes scarring when the stone passes through. As a preventive for nephrolithiasis, there is a fairly effective home remedy – drinking cranberry juice or cran-apple if you can’t stand the taste of the stuff straight. That is if it isn’t against your diet.

That is a misnomer. Cranberry juice actually crystallizes the stones and makes them sharper as they pass through. Cola, which I always thought was a "no-no" the doctor said was fine. Tea is the only "no-no". I am NOT looking forward to this. They made me sign a statement that it’s not their fault if I die. <grin You would have had to sign the same form if you were having an ingrown toenail removed. It’s SOP.

They are making me prove that my diabetes is under control, making me do another heart stress test, and doing a test of some sort about clotting factor "just in case" the surgery gets more involved. Hugs, Ralph Be sure and have plenty of photos taken so that you can post them on the NG!

Believe me, nobody wants to see my body!! I could easily be a Jabba the Hutt body double <grin Now the cat scan IS interesting, as you can see where the stone has drilled a large hole in my kidney and expanded my uriter <sp until it got stuck. You can compaire the two sides in the films/ Hugs, Ralph – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -James

Response:

Your posts are sounding a bit more upbeat today.  That’s good.  Did you start taking your meds again? c

Response:

The upbeat post came before the meds. started meds friday AM, made post thursday PM. Hopefully daughter will visit today, Friday PM, so that I won’t get depressed again. go into hospital for surgery on kidney stone 7/8. Going to put a scope up you know where and blast the stone with a laser. I am NOT looking forward to this. They made me sign a statement that its not their fault if I die. <grin Hugs, Ralph – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Your posts are sounding a bit more upbeat today.  That’s good.  Did you start taking your meds again? c

Response:

Question:

velik…@gwu.edu (M) wrote in message <news:2ad2ae08.0302152149.18a613ca@posting.google.com>… > Hello, > I would like to know if it is OK to drink carrot juice when you have > kidney stones. Are there any substances in the carrot juice that can > make the situation worse? > Thanks.

depends on what biochemical abnormality is causing your kidney stones! your could have primary hyperoxaluria, secondary, enteric or another type. for instance calcium citrate is indicated for enteric, but contraindicated for the primary type. if you have ibs then your are more likely to having enteric hyperoxaluria, in that case the trick is to time your carrot juice intake with low levels of dietary sodium and fat, therefore the best time for carrot juice would be in the morning upon waking up and the worse time would be say after eating pizza! mike. (a person who believe enteric hyperoxaluria is responsible for my ibs)

Response:

In sci.life-extension M <velik…@gwu.edu> wrote: : I would like to know if it is OK to drink carrot juice when you have : kidney stones. Are there any substances in the carrot juice that can : make the situation worse? Carrots come suprisingly high up on:   http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/Other/oxalic.html The most common form of kidney stone (75%) is composed of calcium oxalate. If you have one of the other sorts (25%) this may not be relevant. Dietary oxalic acid is regarded as a risk factor for kidney stones – and those with oxalic kidney stones are often advised to avoid dietary oxalates – however it seems that increasing pH and drinking lots of water are regarded as more important. Note that /some/ plants rich in oxalates are recommended for kidney stone sufferers – parsley and watercress, for example. — __________  |im |yler  http://timtyler.org/  t…@tt1.org

Response:

Hello, I would like to know if it is OK to drink carrot juice when you have kidney stones. Are there any substances in the carrot juice that can make the situation worse? Thanks.

Response:

"M" <velik…@gwu.edu> wrote in message

news:2ad2ae08.0302152149.18a613ca@posting.google.com… > Hello, > I would like to know if it is OK to drink carrot juice when you have > kidney stones. Are there any substances in the carrot juice that can > make the situation worse? > Thanks.

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Response:

There was quite a productive discussion of kidney stones on sci.life-extension in October 2002, entitled "Never ending Kidney Stones" Basically, magnesium & B6 are effective in their prevention and remission.  See end of post. Cheers, Michael C Price —————————————- http://mcp.longevity-report.com http://www.hedweb.com/manworld.htm "M" <velik…@gwu.edu> wrote in message

news:2ad2ae08.0302152149.18a613ca@posting.google.com… > Hello, > I would like to know if it is OK to drink carrot juice when you have > kidney stones. Are there any substances in the carrot juice that can > make the situation worse? > Thanks.

************ from the archives ************* Mg follow-up:  I seem to remember hearing that the magnesium displaces the calcium in the stone, forming magnesium oxalate which is more soluble, AFAIK, so that the stones slowly dissolve.  Whatever the explanation, it seems to work. Some more magnesium & calcium references: J Urol 1997 Dec;158(6):2069-73 Potassium-magnesium citrate is an effective prophylaxis against recurrent calcium oxalate nephrolithiasis. Ettinger B, Pak CY, Citron JT, Thomas C, Adams-Huet B, Vangessel A. Division of Research, Kaiser Permanente Medical Care Program, Oakland, California 94611-5714, USA. PURPOSE: We examined the efficacy of potassium-magnesium citrate in preventing recurrent calcium oxalate kidney calculi. MATERIALS AND METHODS: We conducted a prospective double-blind study of 64 patients who were randomly assigned to receive placebo or potassium-magnesium citrate (42 mEq. potassium, 21 mEq. magnesium, and 63 mEq. citrate) daily for up to 3 years. RESULTS. New calculi formed in 63.6% of subjects receiving placebo and in 12.9% of subjects receiving potassium-magnesium citrate. When compared with placebo, the relative risk of treatment failure for potassium-magnesium citrate was 0.16 (95% confidence interval 0.05 to 0.46). Potassium-magnesium citrate had a statistically significant effect (relative risk 0.10, 95% confidence interval 0.03 to 0.36) even after adjustment for possible confounders, including age, pretreatment calculous event rate and urinary biochemical abnormalities. CONCLUSIONS: Potassium-magnesium citrate effectively prevents recurrent calcium oxalate stones, and this treatment given for up to 3 years reduces risk of recurrence by 85%. Publication Types: Clinical Trial Randomized Controlled Trial PMID: 9366314 Nephron 1999;81 Suppl 1:60-5 Medical prevention of renal stone disease. Pak CY. Center for Mineral Metabolism and Clinical Research, University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center, Dallas, Tex. 75235-8885, USA. Medical treatment designed to prevent stone formation is important in idiopathic calcium oxalate nephrolithiasis, because of the high rate of stone recurrence. Several randomized trials have established the values of conservative and drug treatments. A high fluid intake alone has been reported to inhibit the recurrence of stone formation in single stone formers. In patients with recurrent disease, a significant reduction in stone formation rate from pretreatment was found in the placebo group maintained on a conservative program, underscoring the importance of increased fluid intake and dietary modification. In patients with active recurrent stone disease, treatment with drugs along with a conservative program is necessary. Allopurinol, thiazide, potassium citrate and potassium-magnesium citrate have been shown to inhibit stone formation compared with placebo. It has not been clearly established that a selective treatment is more effective than a more randomly chosen drug treatment. Another advantage of medical approach is its ability to correct nonrenal complications of stone disease, such as bone loss that sometimes accompanies stone disease. Publication Types: Review Review, Tutorial PMID: 9873216 J Am Coll Nutr 1999 Oct;18(5 Suppl):373S-378S The role of calcium in the prevention of kidney stones. Heller HJ. University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas, 75235-8885, USA. Nephrolithiasis is a common and important condition. Several lines of evidence suggest that increased urinary calcium increases the risk of kidney stones. Since dietary calcium raises urinary calcium, it has been common practice to reduce calcium intake in stone-formers who hyperabsorb calcium from the intestine, although no trial has yet been designed to directly demonstrate the effectiveness of calcium restriction. In contrast, some have suggested that calcium restriction may be harmful due to resultant hyperoxaluria and risk of bone loss. In fact, two powerful prospective observational studies have suggested that increased dietary calcium reduces the risk of the first kidney stone. However, calcium was not the only variable, since those with the highest quintile of calcium intake also ingested more fluid, potassium, magnesium and phosphate. Moreover, the otherwise thorough analysis was not adjusted for alkali intake, which may prevent stones, or oxalate intake, which may increase stone risk. Due to limitations in available data, future prospective studies should be designed to probe the effect of specific interventions with calcium, both dietary and supplemental, on urinary parameters and stone formation, particularly in hypercalciuric stone-formers, who may respond conversely. For now, dietary calcium should be gradually increased in stone-formers as guided by the urinary calcium, and hypocalciuric agents should be added as necessary. Publication Types: Review Review, Tutorial PMID: 10511317 Cheers, Michael C Price —————————————- http://www.longevity-report.com/lr91.htm http://www.hedweb.com/manworld.htm "michaelprice" <michaelpr…@ntlworld.com> wrote in message

news:Jq7r9.1815$v_5.161923@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >>> As you can imagine, I am fed up with just waiting around for stones to > >>> pass and am very serious about trying things the "natural" way to see > >>> if it will help. > >> Shelli, I can’t find the reference right now, but there is a > >> counterintuitive way to reduce the formation of calcium oxalate in the > >> kidneys–eat some calcium with each meal.  The oxalic acid in the meal > >> will bind with the calcium in the gut and pass out as solid waste. > Magnesium and B6 are also benefical. > Is this the calcium ref’ ? > N Engl J Med 1993 Mar 25;328(12):833-8 > Comment in: > N Engl J Med. 1993 Aug 12;329(7):508-9. > N Engl J Med. 1993 Aug 12;329(7):509. > N Engl J Med. 1993 Mar 25;328(12):880-2. > A prospective study of dietary calcium and other nutrients and the risk of > symptomatic kidney stones. > Curhan GC, Willett WC, Rimm EB, Stampfer MJ. > Department of Epidemiology, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, MA > 02115. > BACKGROUND. A high dietary calcium intake is strongly suspected of > increasing the risk of kidney stones. However, a high intake of calcium can > reduce the urinary excretion of oxalate, which is thought to lower the risk. > The concept that a higher dietary calcium intake increases the risk of > kidney stones therefore requires examination. METHODS. We conducted a > prospective study of the relation between dietary calcium intake and the > risk of symptomatic kidney stones in a cohort of 45,619 men, 40 to 75 years > of age, who had no history of kidney stones. Dietary calcium was measured by > means of a semiquantitative food-frequency questionnaire in 1986. During > four years of follow-up, 505 cases of kidney stones were documented. > RESULTS. After adjustment for age, dietary calcium intake was inversely > associated with the risk of kidney stones; the relative risk of kidney > stones for men in the highest as compared with the lowest quintile group for > calcium intake was 0.56 (95 percent confidence interval, 0.43 to 0.73; P for > trend, < 0.001). This reduction in risk decreased only slightly (relative > risk, 0.66; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.49 to 0.90) after further > adjustment for other potential risk factors, including alcohol consumption > and dietary intake of animal protein, potassium, and fluid. Intake of animal > protein was directly associated with the risk of stone formation (relative > risk for men with the highest intake as compared with those with the lowest, > 1.33; 95 percent confidence interval, 1.00 to 1.77); potassium intake > (relative risk, 0.49; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.35 to 0.68) and > fluid intake (relative risk, 0.71; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.52 to > 0.97) were inversely related to the risk of kidney stones. CONCLUSIONS. A > high dietary calcium intake decreases the risk of symptomatic kidney stones. > PMID: 8441427 > Urol Res 1994;22(3):161-5 > Effect of combined supplementation of magnesium oxide and pyridoxine in > calcium-oxalate stone formers. > Rattan V, Sidhu H, Vaidyanathan S, Thind SK, Nath R. > Department of Biochemistry, Postgraduate Institute of Medical Education and > Research, Chandigarh, India. > A combined supplement of magnesium oxide (300 mg/day) and pyridoxine.HCl (10 > mg/day) was given p.o. to 16 recurrent calcium oxalate (CaOx) stone formers, > and its therapeutic efficacy was biochemically evaluated by measuring > various parameters of blood (Na, K, Mg, urea, creatinine, calcium, > phosphate, uric acid, alanine transaminase, aspartate transaminase and > alkaline phosphatase) and urine (volume, pH, creatinine, Na, K, Mg, uric > acid, calcium, phosphate, oxalate and citrate) at 0, 30, 60, 90 and 120 days > of treatment. Serum Mg significantly (P < 0.01) increased after 30 days of > treatment and remained constant thereafter while other blood parameters were > unaltered. Combined treatment led to a significant increase in the urinary > excretion of Mg and citrate over pretreatment values while oxalate excretion > showed a gradual and significant decline during the therapy. The results > confirmed the efficacy of

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Response:

Question:

OK… so I poked into more current figures than I have in the table I’ve got… These are the U.S. recommended daily allowances (for adults in general,) of various micronutrients, current in 2001.  U.S. RDAs are also given for infants (0-1 years), children (1-3 years), and pregnant or lactating women, but I haven’t included them here. These U.S. RDAs are listed in the Federal Register. This table will look like hell if you’re viewing it in a proportional font… I’ve set it up 77 characters wide for display in fixed-width fonts. Nutrient         Other Names & Usual Forms in Supplements          U.S. RDA ——–         —————————————-          ——– Vitamin A        Vitamin A acetate; Beta-carotene                  5000 IU Vitamin D        Vitamin D; Cholecalciferol                        400 IU Vitamin E        Alpha tocopherol acetate                          30 IU Vitamin C        Ascorbic acid; Niacinamide ascorbate              60 mg Folic acid       Folacin                                           400 mcg Vitamin B-1      Thiamine; Thiamin; Thiamine mononitrate           1.5 mg Vitamin B-2      Riboflavin Vitamin B-2                            1.7 mg Niacin           Niacinamide; Niacinamide ascorbate                20 mg Vitamin B-6      Pyridoxine hydrochloride                          2.0 mg Vitamin B-12     Cyanocobalamin                                    6.0 mcg Biotin           Biotin                                            0.3 mg Pantothenic acid Calcium pantothenate                              10 mg Calcium          Dibasic calcium phosphate; Elemental calcium      1000 mg Phosphorus       Dibasic calcium phosphate                         1000 mg Iodine           Potassium iodide                                  150 mcg Iron             Ferrous fumarate; Ferrous sulfate; Elemental iron 18 mg Magnesium        Magnesium oxide; Magnesium sulfate                400 mg Copper           Cupric oxide; Cupric sulfate                      2.0 mg Zinc             Zinc oxide                                        15 mg — Michael <<muirh…@island.net>> Peace is not the absence of war, but the universal presence of justice.

Response:

Michael wrote: > Heavy vitamin B-6 (pyridoxine) poisoning causes serious nervous system > trouble, including complete "disembodiment", a selective neuropathy of the > proprioceptive system.   Imagine literally not having any sense of your > body’s position, muscle tension, muscle and tendon motion… <shudder.

Hmmm, sounds vaguely familiar. Eliz. ^^^^^ Are these MY FEET? (Father Ted)

Response:

"cocobunny" <cocobu…@shaw.ca> wrote in message

news:3C3546B6.202D18C1@shaw.ca… | Michael wrote:

| | > Heavy vitamin B-6 (pyridoxine) poisoning causes serious nervous system | > trouble, including complete "disembodiment", a selective neuropathy of the | > proprioceptive system.   Imagine literally not having any sense of your | > body’s position, muscle tension, muscle and tendon motion… <shudder. | | Hmmm, sounds vaguely familiar. | | Eliz. | ^^^^^ | Are these MY FEET? | (Father Ted) Ever read Oliver Sacks’ "A Leg to Stand On", or "The Man Who Mistook his Wife for a Hat"? He describes proprioceptive difficulty from both clinical and personal experience.   One case is that of a woman with a neuropathy of the type that can be brought on by B-6 poisoning.   Though not actually paralysed, she was limp as a ragdoll at first because, not knowing what her muscles and tendons and whatnot were doing, she made none of the automatic, unconscious adjustments we all make to our posture from moment to moment. Proprioception means literally "sense of self"… imagine feeling your body to be something foreign and separate from yourself.   I’ve had very minor problems on and off with not knowing properly what my left foot is doing, but I can’t get my mind around total loss of proprioception at all. I lke the Father Ted quote… wish I had such a perfect one for *any* ocassion. <G> — Michael <<muirh…@island.net>> Peace is not the absence of war, but the universal presence of justice.

Response:

"cocobunny" <cocobu…@shaw.ca> wrote in message

news:3C353DD4.AC41462A@shaw.ca… | Which ones are dangerous in amounts over the RDA? The only *dangerous* one’s I’m aware of right off the top of my head are A and B-6, though there are presumably upper limits on most of them for what’s "safe" to take. Vitamin A toxicity is something I don’t know an awful lot about, but it’s well documented, and it’s pretty nasty… occasionally fatal… though you have to take truly huge amounts of the stuff to do serious damage. Heavy vitamin B-6 (pyridoxine) poisoning causes serious nervous system trouble, including complete "disembodiment", a selective neuropathy of the proprioceptive system.   Imagine literally not having any sense of your body’s position, muscle tension, muscle and tendon motion… <shudder. — Michael <<muirh…@island.net>> Peace is not the absence of war, but the universal presence of justice. | Michael wrote:

| > | > OK… so I poked into more current figures than I have in the table I’ve | > got… | > | > These are the U.S. recommended daily allowances (for adults in general,) of | > various micronutrients, current in 2001.  U.S. RDAs are also given for | > infants (0-1 years), children (1-3 years), and pregnant or lactating women, | > but I haven’t included them here. These U.S. RDAs are listed in the Federal | > Register. | > | > This table will look like hell if you’re viewing it in a proportional | > font… I’ve set it up 77 characters wide for display in fixed-width fonts. | > | > Nutrient         Other Names & Usual Forms in Supplements          U.S. RDA | –         —————————————-          ——– | > Vitamin A        Vitamin A acetate; Beta-carotene                  5000 IU | > Vitamin D        Vitamin D; Cholecalciferol                        400 IU | > Vitamin E        Alpha tocopherol acetate                          30 IU | > Vitamin C        Ascorbic acid; Niacinamide ascorbate              60 mg | > Folic acid       Folacin                                           400 mcg | > Vitamin B-1      Thiamine; Thiamin; Thiamine mononitrate           1.5 mg | > Vitamin B-2      Riboflavin Vitamin B-2                            1.7 mg | > Niacin           Niacinamide; Niacinamide ascorbate                20 mg | > Vitamin B-6      Pyridoxine hydrochloride                          2.0 mg | > Vitamin B-12     Cyanocobalamin                                    6.0 mcg | > Biotin           Biotin                                            0.3 mg | > Pantothenic acid Calcium pantothenate                              10 mg | > Calcium          Dibasic calcium phosphate; Elemental calcium      1000 mg | > Phosphorus       Dibasic calcium phosphate                         1000 mg | > Iodine           Potassium iodide                                  150 mcg | > Iron             Ferrous fumarate; Ferrous sulfate; Elemental iron 18 mg | > Magnesium        Magnesium oxide; Magnesium sulfate                400 mg | > Copper           Cupric oxide; Cupric sulfate                      2.0 mg | > Zinc             Zinc oxide                                        15 mg | > | > — | > Michael <<muirh…@island.net>> | > Peace is not the absence of war, but the universal presence of justice. | | — | Eliz. | ^^^^^ | Wow, there’s lots of ways you can praise God isn’t there? | Like that time you told me I could praise him by just leaving the room? | (Father Ted)

Response:

Of course, too much cooking sherry can do the same thing, Eliz.  Perhaps that’s what seems familiar.   – Lynne "cocobunny" <cocobu…@shaw.ca> wrote in message

news:3C3546B6.202D18C1@shaw.ca… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Michael wrote: > > Heavy vitamin B-6 (pyridoxine) poisoning causes serious nervous system > > trouble, including complete "disembodiment", a selective neuropathy of the > > proprioceptive system.   Imagine literally not having any sense of your > > body’s position, muscle tension, muscle and tendon motion… <shudder. > Hmmm, sounds vaguely familiar. > Eliz. > ^^^^^ > Are these MY FEET? > (Father Ted)

Response:

no no no, you’re not going to put that off on me! YOU are the ng party girl, not me. ps I hear there are large quantities of b6 in bar peanuts. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Lynne wrote: > Of course, too much cooking sherry can do the same thing, Eliz.  Perhaps > that’s what seems familiar. >   – Lynne > "cocobunny" <cocobu…@shaw.ca> wrote in message > news:3C3546B6.202D18C1@shaw.ca… > > Michael wrote: > > > Heavy vitamin B-6 (pyridoxine) poisoning causes serious nervous system > > > trouble, including complete "disembodiment", a selective neuropathy of > the > > > proprioceptive system.   Imagine literally not having any sense of your > > > body’s position, muscle tension, muscle and tendon motion… <shudder. > > Hmmm, sounds vaguely familiar. > > Eliz. > > ^^^^^ > > Are these MY FEET? > > (Father Ted)

– Eliz. ^^^^^ Wow, there’s lots of ways you can praise God isn’t there? Like that time you told me I could praise him by just leaving the room? (Father Ted)

Response:

On Thu, 03 Jan 2002 21:29:05 -0500, Jim Carter <jimcar…@gmx.net> wrote: }>Vitamin D        Vitamin D; Cholecalciferol                        400 IU } }I believe recent studies have found this to be inadequate.  Minimum of 10,000 IU }is now recommended.

Jim asked me to correct this. It should read 1,000 IU. — Joan Trolls now come encased in iron.

Response:

| | I lke the Father Ted quote… wish I had such a perfect one for *any* | ocassion. <G> | — | Michael <<muirh…@island.net>> You did, when you used Pooh’s quotes … — Pamela non sum qualis eram "I am not as I used to be"

Response:

Here is a whole lot of info on Vitamin Toxicology Jack Toxicity, Vitamin from Emergency Medicine / Toxicology Sponsors do not influence content. Toxicity, Vitamin Synonyms, Key Words, and Related Terms: vitamin A, retinol, vitamin D, cholecalciferol, vitamin E, alpha-tocopherol, vitamin K, phytonadione, vitamin B-1, thiamine, vitamin B-2, riboflavin, vitamin B-3, niacin, vitamin B-6, pyridoxine, vitamin B-12, cyanocobalamin, vitamin C, ascorbic acid, folic acid Home|Search|Contents|A-Z Index|Tools|Updates|Medline|Cover|Dictionary|GetCME|Rate this topic|Help eMedicine Journal > Emergency Medicine > Toxicology > Toxicity, Vitamin Author Information | Introduction | Clinical | Differentials | Workup | Treatment | Medication | Follow-up | Miscellaneous | Bibliography We are offering CME for this topic. Click on the GetCME button to take CME (Your first test is Free!) AUTHOR INFORMATION Section 1 of 10 Authored by Mark Rosenbloom, MD, MBA, FACEP, Assistant Clinical Professor, Department of Emergency Medicine, Northwestern University Medical School, Northwestern Memorial Hospital Mark Rosenbloom, MD, MBA, FACEP, is a member of the following medical societies: American College of Emergency Physicians Edited by Richard Lavely, MD, JD, MS, MPH, Lecturer, Department of Public Health, Yale University School of Medicine; John T VanDeVoort, PharmD, DABAT, Manager, Clinical Assistant Professor, Pharmacy Department, Regions Hospital; Fred Harchelroad, MD, FACMT, Chair, Department of Emergency Medicine, Director of Medical Toxicology, Associate Professor, Department of Emergency Medicine, Allegheny General Hospital; John Halamka, MD, Chief Information Officer, CareGroup Healthcare System, Assistant Professor of Medicine, Department of Emergency Medicine, Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center; Assistant Professor of Medicine, Harvard Medical School; and Raymond J Roberge, MD, MPH, FAAEM, FACMT, Research Director, Department of Emergency Medicine, Ohio Valley Medical Center; Clinical Associate Professor, Department of Emergency Medicine, University of Pittsburgh Author’s Email:Mark Rosenbloom, MD, MBA, FACEP Editor’s Email:Richard Lavely, MD, JD, MS, MPH eMedicine Journal, October 23 2001, Volume 2, Number 10 INTRODUCTION Section 2 of 10 Background: More than 100 million Americans regularly use vitamins. In the US, consumer spending on vitamins and minerals has doubled in the last 6 years, reaching $6.5 billion annually. Iron-containing vitamins are the most toxic, especially in pediatric acute ingestions (see Toxicity, Iron). Fat-soluble vitamins are more dangerous in acute ingestions. Frequency: In the US: Data from the 1998 American Association of Poison Control Centers’ Toxic Exposure Surveillance System document the total number of exposures for each class of vitamins, the number of patients with major adverse outcomes, and the number of fatalities from that ingestion, as follows: Adult multiple vitamins without iron or fluoride – 2409 total exposures, 1 major outcome, and 0 deaths Adult multiple vitamins with iron but without fluoride – 5781 total exposures, 2 major outcomes, and 0 deaths Pediatric multiple vitamins without iron or fluoride – 7252 total exposures, 0 major outcomes, and 0 deaths Pediatric multiple vitamins with iron but without fluoride – 16,125 total exposures, 0 major outcomes, and 0 deaths Vitamin A – 2146 total exposures, 0 major outcomes, and 0 deaths Niacin – 2244 total exposures, 2 major outcomes, and 0 deaths Pyridoxine – 355 total exposures, 5 major outcomes, and 0 deaths Other B complex vitamins – 1439 total exposures, 0 major outcomes, and 0 deaths Vitamin C – 2650 total exposures, 0 major outcomes, and 0 deaths Vitamin E – 1726 total exposures, 1 major outcome, and 0 deaths Overall, 49,709 exposures to different types of vitamins were reported to the poison control centers across the US in 1998, accounting for 14 major adverse outcomes and no deaths. Of the total exposures, 39,396 exposures occurred in children younger than 6 years. Mortality/Morbidity: Morbidity and mortality from pure vitamins are rare. One study of acute or chronic overdoses, with more than 40,000 exposures, reported 1 death and 8 major adverse outcomes. Race: No scientific data indicate that outcomes of vitamin overdose are dependent on race. Sex: No scientific data indicate that outcomes of vitamin overdose are dependent on sex.  CLINICAL Section 3 of 10 Physical: Nonspecific symptoms, such as nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, and rash, are common with any acute or chronic vitamin overdose. Vitamin-caused symptoms may be secondary to those associated with additives (eg, mannitol), colorings, or binders; these symptoms usually are not severe. The following are symptoms of specific vitamin overdose: Vitamin A Acute toxicity effects include headache, nausea, vomiting, drowsiness, and desquamation after 24 hours. Chronic toxicity affects the skin, mucous membranes, and the musculoskeletal and neurological systems. Skin and mucous membrane effects include erythema, eczema, pruritus, dry and cracked skin, conjunctivitis, palmar and plantar peeling, and alopecia. Musculoskeletal effects include pain and tenderness, particularly in the long bones of the upper and lower extremities, which may be exacerbated by exercise; epiphyseal capping and premature epiphyseal closure may occur in children. Neurological effects include frontal headache and blurred vision. Findings also include papilledema, hepatomegaly, ascites, erythematous dermatitis, or bulging fontanelle in infants. Vitamin D Acute toxicity effects may include muscle weakness, apathy, headache, anorexia, nausea, vomiting, and bone pain. Chronic toxicity effects include the above symptoms and constipation, anorexia, polydipsia, polyuria, backache, hyperlipidemia, and hypercalcemia. Findings also may include hypertension and cardiac arrhythmias. Vitamin E Acute toxicity effects include nausea, headache, fatigue, easy bruising, and bleeding (lowered prothrombin time [PT], prolonged activated partial thromboplastin time [aPTT]), diplopia (at dosages as low as 300 IU), muscle weakness, and creatinuria. Chronic toxicity effects include all of the above. Vitamin K This particular toxicity typically is associated with infants. Effects may include jaundice in newborns, hemolytic anemia, and hyperbilirubinemia. Toxicity also blocks the effects of oral anticoagulants. Vitamins B-1, B-2, B-12, and folate Effects may be minimal and nonspecific. Vitamin B-2 turns the urine yellow-orange. Vitamin B-1 (ie, thiamine) toxicity effects may include the following: Tachycardia Hypotension Cardiac dysrhythmias Headache Anaphylaxis Vasodilation Weakness Convulsions Single acute toxicity is rare. Vitamin B-3 (ie, niacin, nicotinic acid) Acute toxicity effects are prostaglandin-mediated and include flushing, pruritus, wheezing, vasodilation, headache, increased intracranial blood flow, and headache. Chronic toxicity effects include jaundice, abnormal liver function tests, signs and symptoms of liver toxicity (most common with sustained-release preparations), and acanthosis nigricans (rare). Vitamin B-6 (ie, pyridoxine) Effects include tachypnea and sensory neuropathies, such as burning pains, paresthesias, ataxia, clumsiness, paralysis, and perioral numbness. Findings range from normal CNS function to progressive sensory ataxias, profound impairment of position and vibration sense, and diminished tendon reflexes. Vitamin C Effects may be renal colic (ie, nephrolithiasis), diarrhea, rebound scurvy in infants born to women taking high doses, hemolysis if G-6-PD deficiency is present, possible dental decalcification, and increased estrogen levels. Findings may include occult rectal bleeding. Causes: Vitamin A (ie, retinol) – Found in green and yellow vegetables, liver, egg yolks, fish oil, and margarine US recommended dietary allowance (RDA) is 5000 IU (2500 IU for children aged 1-4 years). Supplements usually are 10,000-50,000 IU per capsule. Fish-liver oils may contain more than 180,000 IU/g. Acute toxic dose is 25,000 IU/kg, and chronic toxic dose is 4000 IU/kg every day for 6-15 months. Beta-carotene (ie, provitamin A) is converted to retinol but not rapidly enough for acute toxicity. Vitamin A is highly teratogenic in pregnancy; however, it also is a cofactor in night vision and bone growth. Vitamin D (ie, cholecalciferol) is present in most dairy products, egg yolks, liver, and fish. RDA is 400 IU for persons older than 1 year. Supplements usually are 400 IU per tablet. Acute toxic dose is not established, and chronic toxic dose is more than 50,000 IU/d in adults. In children, 400 IU/d is potentially toxic. A wide variance in potential toxicity exists. Vitamin D increases serum calcium levels by facilitating calcium absorption and mobilizing calcium from bone. Vitamin E (ie, alpha-tocopherol) is found in vegetable oil, nuts, wheat, and green leafy vegetables. RDA is 30 IU (10 IU for children aged 1-4 years). Supplements usually are 100-1000 IU per capsule. The potentially toxic dose is more than 3000 IU/d for 7-9 weeks. Severe toxicity is very rare. Vitamin E functions as an antioxidant. It may block absorption of Vitamin A and K. Vitamin E decreases low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol level at doses more than 400 IU/d. Vitamin K (ie, phytonadione) Vitamin K-1 supplements usually are 2.5-10 mg. A toxic dose amount is not established. Phytonadione promotes liver synthesis of factors II, VII, IX, and X. Vitamin B-1 (ie, thiamine) is found in organ meats, yeast, eggs, and green leafy vegetables. RDA is 1.5 mg (0.7 mg for children aged 1-4 years). Supplements usually are 50-500 mg per tablet. Thiamin generally is nontoxic. Vitamin B-1 is a cofactor for pyruvate dehydrogenase in the Krebs cycle. Vitamin B-2 (ie, riboflavin) RDA is 1.7 mg (0.8 mg for children aged 1-4 years). Supplements usually are 25-100 mg. B-2 generally is nontoxic. Vitamin B-3 (ie, niacin) is … read more »

Response:

On Thu, 3 Jan 2002 09:53:55 -0800, "Michael" <muirh…@island.net> wrote: >Vitamin D        Vitamin D; Cholecalciferol                        400 IU

I believe recent studies have found this to be inadequate.  Minimum of 10,000 IU is now recommended. — Troll bait aspartame gluten dairy mercury Hg amalgam lyme bloodletting

Response:

"Jim Carter" <jimcar…@gmx.net> wrote in message

news:8n4a3uc5kdlm0sh4cvuu0v12ik5dm7jvpq@4ax.com… | On Thu, 3 Jan 2002 09:53:55 -0800, "Michael" <muirh…@island.net> wrote: | | >Vitamin D        Vitamin D; Cholecalciferol                        400 IU | | I believe recent studies have found this to be inadequate.  Minimum of 10,000 IU | is now recommended. Hmmm…. looking back at the place I took the table from, I see that those are 1998’s RDA’s. I doubt much has changed since, but it’s possible that the RDA for vitamin D has been upped to 1000 IU from 400, based on the following: ———– RDA for Vitamin D Too Low for Those with Little Sunlight Exposure Many people who are not exposed to adequate amounts of sunlight are suffering from significant vitamin D deficiencies, especially if their diets are also low in it. Therefore, the authors of this study are recommending that the RDA (recommended daily allowance) for adults be raised to 1000 IU. Sunlight exposure of the skin is known to be the most important source of vitamin D. This study looked at the vitamin D status of sunlight-deprived individuals compared with those with normal sunlight exposure. This Danish study used veiled Arab women and veiled ethnic Danish Moslem women (Caucasian) and compared them the Danish population (controls). Diet analysis of each group was also performed. Serum levels of 25-hydroxyvitamin D were used as estimates of vitamin D status. Parathyroid hormone (PTH) was also measured to control for secondary hyperparathyroidism. Oral intake of vitamin D and calcium were estimated through a historical food intake interview performed by a trained clinical dietician. Veiled Arab women displayed extremely low values of 25-hydroxyvitamin D, less than one-sixth that of the controls. The veiled Danish women had levels less than one-half that of the controls. PTH was found to be greatly increased amongst veiled Arab women, whose values were nearly 6 times higher than controls. The veiled Danish women had levels almost 3 times higher than controls. Compounding the lack of sunlight problem was the fact that the veiled Arab women had very low dietary vitamin D intake (including supplementation), about 13 times lower than Danish Moslems and 7 times lower than the controls. The authors conclude that severe vitamin D deficiency is prevalent amongst sunlight-deprived individuals. This deficiency may be the result of a combination of limitations in sunlight exposure and a low oral intake of vitamin D. Since the oral intake amongst veiled ethnic Danish Moslems was approximately 600 IU, but they were still vitamin D-deficient, they propose that 600 IU is insufficient to maintain proper vitamin D status when sunlight exposure is limited. Therefore, they propose that a minimum RDA of 1000 IU per day should be adopted. J Intern Med 2000; 247: 260-268 —————- Maybe this clarifies? — Michael <<muirh…@island.net>> Peace is not the absence of war, but the universal presence of justice.

Response:

Which ones are dangerous in amounts over the RDA? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Michael wrote: > OK… so I poked into more current figures than I have in the table I’ve > got… > These are the U.S. recommended daily allowances (for adults in general,) of > various micronutrients, current in 2001.  U.S. RDAs are also given for > infants (0-1 years), children (1-3 years), and pregnant or lactating women, > but I haven’t included them here. These U.S. RDAs are listed in the Federal > Register. > This table will look like hell if you’re viewing it in a proportional > font… I’ve set it up 77 characters wide for display in fixed-width fonts. > Nutrient         Other Names & Usual Forms in Supplements          U.S. RDA > ——–         —————————————-          ——– > Vitamin A        Vitamin A acetate; Beta-carotene                  5000 IU > Vitamin D        Vitamin D; Cholecalciferol                        400 IU > Vitamin E        Alpha tocopherol acetate                          30 IU > Vitamin C        Ascorbic acid; Niacinamide ascorbate              60 mg > Folic acid       Folacin                                           400 mcg > Vitamin B-1      Thiamine; Thiamin; Thiamine mononitrate           1.5 mg > Vitamin B-2      Riboflavin Vitamin B-2                            1.7 mg > Niacin           Niacinamide; Niacinamide ascorbate                20 mg > Vitamin B-6      Pyridoxine hydrochloride                          2.0 mg > Vitamin B-12     Cyanocobalamin                                    6.0 mcg > Biotin           Biotin                                            0.3 mg > Pantothenic acid Calcium pantothenate                              10 mg > Calcium          Dibasic calcium phosphate; Elemental calcium      1000 mg > Phosphorus       Dibasic calcium phosphate                         1000 mg > Iodine           Potassium iodide                                  150 mcg > Iron             Ferrous fumarate; Ferrous sulfate; Elemental iron 18 mg > Magnesium        Magnesium oxide; Magnesium sulfate                400 mg > Copper           Cupric oxide; Cupric sulfate                      2.0 mg > Zinc             Zinc oxide                                        15 mg > — > Michael <<muirh…@island.net>> > Peace is not the absence of war, but the universal presence of justice.

– Eliz. ^^^^^ Wow, there’s lots of ways you can praise God isn’t there? Like that time you told me I could praise him by just leaving the room? (Father Ted)

Response:

That’s so useful I’ve taken a print for keeps.   Just one question – is that with or without fries ? Roarke "Michael" <muirh…@island.net> wrote in message

news:a125s0$n5kof$2@ID-78693.news.dfncis.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> OK… so I poked into more current figures than I have in the table I’ve > got… > These are the U.S. recommended daily allowances (for adults in general,) of > various micronutrients, current in 2001.  U.S. RDAs are also given for > infants (0-1 years), children (1-3 years), and pregnant or lactating women, > but I haven’t included them here. These U.S. RDAs are listed in the Federal > Register. > This table will look like hell if you’re viewing it in a proportional > font… I’ve set it up 77 characters wide for display in fixed-width fonts. > Nutrient         Other Names & Usual Forms in Supplements          U.S. RDA > ——–         —————————————-          ——- – > Vitamin A        Vitamin A acetate; Beta-carotene                  5000 IU > Vitamin D        Vitamin D; Cholecalciferol                        400 IU > Vitamin E        Alpha tocopherol acetate                          30 IU > Vitamin C        Ascorbic acid; Niacinamide ascorbate              60 mg > Folic acid       Folacin                                           400 mcg > Vitamin B-1      Thiamine; Thiamin; Thiamine mononitrate           1.5 mg > Vitamin B-2      Riboflavin Vitamin B-2                            1.7 mg > Niacin           Niacinamide; Niacinamide ascorbate                20 mg > Vitamin B-6      Pyridoxine hydrochloride                          2.0 mg > Vitamin B-12     Cyanocobalamin                                    6.0 mcg > Biotin           Biotin                                            0.3 mg > Pantothenic acid Calcium pantothenate                              10 mg > Calcium          Dibasic calcium phosphate; Elemental calcium      1000 mg > Phosphorus       Dibasic calcium phosphate                         1000 mg > Iodine           Potassium iodide                                  150 mcg > Iron             Ferrous fumarate; Ferrous sulfate; Elemental iron 18 mg > Magnesium        Magnesium oxide; Magnesium sulfate                400 mg > Copper           Cupric oxide; Cupric sulfate                      2.0 mg > Zinc             Zinc oxide                                        15 mg > — > Michael <<muirh…@island.net>> > Peace is not the absence of war, but the universal presence of justice.

Response:

Question:

If there happens to be We can co-treat with an MD for pain. Manipulation produces a global hypoalgesia which reduces the chance for DYING from painkillers.  The MD can perform other necessary functions to ‘fix’ the patient. There was a case of chronic nephrolithiasis in the literature too noting that a chiropractor can also help with nutritional advice (which MD’s are incompetant at..look at their training in the subject). Jay Hafner Doctor of Chiropractic 72 y/o male with elevated bilirubin (5.0) and Alk Phos (450) presenting with painless jaundice.  No past medical or surgical history.  Physical exam is unremarkable except for a palpable gallbladder.  U/S revealed normal size common bile duct and no masses, few gallstones present in an enlarged GB. CT scan unremarkable (no ampullary, pancreatic or ductal masses).  ERCP failed to delineate the common bile duct, although the pancreatic duct filled and is wnl.  CA19-9 and CEA levels are normal.  The patient is now scheduled for a percutaneous transhepatic cholongiogram.  How can chiropractic therapy help any?

– Jay A. Hafner, DC, CCEP Clinic director of Colorado Spine and Rehabilitation-Denver http://www.chiroweb.com/ RPGA Living Greyhawk Triad Member, County of Urnst, CO/WY/NM/MT http://www.cyface.com/countyofurnst/ (Living Greyhawk Web Page for County of Urnst) Http://www.egroup.com/group/lgwriters (LIVING GREYHAWK WRITERS DISCUSSION) http://www.wizards.com/rpga/LG/writers_guidelines.asp

Response:

What do chiropractors know about cell salts? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If there happens to be We can co-treat with an MD for pain. Manipulation produces a global hypoalgesia which reduces the chance for DYING from painkillers.  The MD can perform other necessary functions to ‘fix’ the patient. There was a case of chronic nephrolithiasis in the literature too noting that a chiropractor can also help with nutritional advice (which MD’s are incompetant at..look at their training in the subject). Jay Hafner Doctor of Chiropractic 72 y/o male with elevated bilirubin (5.0) and Alk Phos (450) presenting with painless jaundice.  No past medical or surgical history.  Physical exam is unremarkable except for a palpable gallbladder.  U/S revealed normal size common bile duct and no masses, few gallstones present in an enlarged GB. CT scan unremarkable (no ampullary, pancreatic or ductal masses).  ERCP failed to delineate the common bile duct, although the pancreatic duct filled and is wnl.  CA19-9 and CEA levels are normal.  The patient is now scheduled for a percutaneous transhepatic cholongiogram.  How can chiropractic therapy help any? — Jay A. Hafner, DC, CCEP Clinic director of Colorado Spine and Rehabilitation-Denver http://www.chiroweb.com/ RPGA Living Greyhawk Triad Member, County of Urnst, CO/WY/NM/MT http://www.cyface.com/countyofurnst/ (Living Greyhawk Web Page for County of Urnst) Http://www.egroup.com/group/lgwriters (LIVING GREYHAWK WRITERS DISCUSSION) http://www.wizards.com/rpga/LG/writers_guidelines.asp

Response:

I understand your approach.  My interest is more within the dorsal horn and the interneuronal pools between nociceptive and mechanoreceptors and the effect of a decreased mechanoreception inhibition on nociceptive transmission, specifically to the lateral horn.  We are in the same book, just different pages.

        Agreed.

Response:

At this stage problably not much, but if the person had addressed the condition in the early stages with proper nutrition(preventative) then they might not be in such a bad situation now.  Garbage in garbage out. — Dr. Roland R. Hicks Doctor of Chiropractic All good things come from above-down-inside-out Natural Alternative to Celebrex/Vioxx: http://drhicks.joint-pain.com/ Internet Marketing to Win: http://www.aboutimw.com/drhicks.html Nutrition Products and Information: http://freelife.com/Sites/drhicks/redir.cfm?page=/info/welcome/welcom… fm toll free (877) 791-8686

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 72 y/o male with elevated bilirubin (5.0) and Alk Phos (450) presenting with painless jaundice.  No past medical or surgical history.  Physical exam is unremarkable except for a palpable gallbladder.  U/S revealed normal size common bile duct and no masses, few gallstones present in an enlarged GB. CT scan unremarkable (no ampullary, pancreatic or ductal masses).  ERCP failed to delineate the common bile duct, although the pancreatic duct filled and is wnl.  CA19-9 and CEA levels are normal.  The patient is now scheduled for a percutaneous transhepatic cholongiogram.  How can chiropractic therapy help any?

Response:

So is your hypothesis that these sympathetic nerve fibers from these spinal levels have a decreased flow or an increased flow of impulses due to the "subluxation/s"?

        The most current model of subluxation research is based on the stimulation of joint mechanoreceptors, and it’s effect on the brain.         Stimulation of joint mechanoreceptors (via the chiropractic adjustment) sends the impulse to the cerebellum (via the spinocerebellar tract); which is then relayed to the thalamus; then to the cerebral cortex; then to the hypthalamus (which is the control center of the sympathetic nervous system).         It is hypothesized that lack of mechanoreception (caused by subluxation) functions to increase sympathetic output, whereas increased mechanoreception (due to the adjustment) functions to decrease sympathetic output.

Response:

In article – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So is your hypothesis that these sympathetic nerve fibers from these spinal levels have a decreased flow or an increased flow of impulses due to the "subluxation/s"?    The most current model of subluxation research is based on the stimulation of joint mechanoreceptors, and it’s effect on the brain.    Stimulation of joint mechanoreceptors (via the chiropractic adjustment) sends the impulse to the cerebellum (via the spinocerebellar tract); which is then relayed to the thalamus; then to the cerebral cortex; then to the hypthalamus (which is the control center of the sympathetic nervous system).    It is hypothesized that lack of mechanoreception (caused by subluxation) functions to increase sympathetic output, whereas increased mechanoreception (due to the adjustment) functions to decrease sympathetic output.

I understand your approach.  My interest is more within the dorsal horn and the interneuronal pools between nociceptive and mechanoreceptors and the effect of a decreased mechanoreception inhibition on nociceptive transmission, specifically to the lateral horn.  We are in the same book, just different pages. Before you buy.

Response:

Translation: It can’t. Mad – Quintessence of the Loon http://www.ratbags.com/loon Bad – The Millenium Project    http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Sad – Full Canvas Jacket       http://www.ratbags.com/ranters

Sure it can, Peter.  Perhaps not to "cure" the patient in question’s condition, but if the adjustment provided by a chiropractor results in improved biomechanical and neural function, then that patient has been helped.  If the original question posed had been "How can chiropractic care help this patient’s current diagnosis/complaint" then your answer would probably be correct as the patient is likely dealing with limitations of matter that would hamper the healing process.  If this patient’s condition were caused by an inability for the brain and body to communicate due to a mechanical problem *(a subluxation), then the adjustment would in fact solve this person’s problem.  See the difference? Chiro75 Before you buy.

Response:

In article – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 72 y/o male with elevated bilirubin (5.0) and Alk Phos (450) presenting with painless jaundice.  No past medical or surgical history.  Physical exam is unremarkable except for a palpable gallbladder.  U/S revealed normal size common bile duct and no masses, few gallstones present in an enlarged GB. CT scan unremarkable (no ampullary, pancreatic or ductal masses). ERCP failed to delineate the common bile duct, although the pancreatic duct filled and is wnl.  CA19-9 and CEA levels are normal.  The patient is now scheduled for a percutaneous transhepatic cholongiogram.  How can chiropractic therapy help any?    Chiropractic is not disease care. It is not based on the reductionistic philosophy of "condition based care" [ala allopathy]. Chiropractic is a holistic approach to total body wellness, which emphasizes prevention by striving to remove nerve interference.    The liver, gall bladder, bile ducts, and pancreas are all innervated by sympathetic outflow from spinal nerves T5, T6, T7, T8 and T9. These spinal nerves synapse at the celiac ganglion, which then relays the neural impulse to the respected viscera.  If there was nerve interference to any or all of the spinal nerves at those levels, it could potentially decrease the function of their associated viscera.    I know this flies in the face of your philosophy. As a surgeon, your first impulse is to cut something out of the body. As a chiropractor, my first impulse is to restore proper biomechanical and neural integrity to the spine.

 So is your hypothesis that these sympathetic nerve fibers from these spinal levels have a decreased flow or an increased flow of impulses due to the "subluxation/s"? Before you buy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 72 y/o male with elevated bilirubin (5.0) and Alk Phos (450) presenting with painless jaundice.  No past medical or surgical history.  Physical exam is unremarkable except for a palpable gallbladder.  U/S revealed normal size common bile duct and no masses, few gallstones present in an enlarged GB. CT scan unremarkable (no ampullary, pancreatic or ductal masses).  ERCP failed to delineate the common bile duct, although the pancreatic duct filled and is wnl.  CA19-9 and CEA levels are normal.  The patient is now scheduled for a percutaneous transhepatic cholongiogram.  How can chiropractic therapy help any?        Chiropractic is not disease care. It is not based on the reductionistic philosophy of "condition based care" [ala allopathy]. Chiropractic is a holistic approach to total body wellness, which emphasizes prevention by striving to remove nerve interference.        The liver, gall bladder, bile ducts, and pancreas are all innervated by sympathetic outflow from spinal nerves T5, T6, T7, T8 and T9. These spinal nerves synapse at the celiac ganglion, which then relays the neural impulse to the respected viscera.  If there was nerve interference to any or all of the spinal nerves at those levels, it could potentially decrease the function of their associated viscera.        I know this flies in the face of your philosophy. As a surgeon, your first impulse is to cut something out of the body. As a chiropractor, my first impulse is to restore proper biomechanical and neural integrity to the spine. Translation: It can’t.

That’s *yours* Peter. Why do people want to constantly be putting something that down that people have used for years and are happy with results? Jan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mad – Quintessence of the Loon http://www.ratbags.com/loon Bad – The Millenium Project    http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Sad – Full Canvas Jacket       http://www.ratbags.com/ranters

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Translation: It can’t.

        Re-translation: Peter knows nothing about neuroanatomy and neurophysiology, thus he doubt everything.         Hope this helps!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 72 y/o male with elevated bilirubin (5.0) and Alk Phos (450) presenting with painless jaundice.  No past medical or surgical history.  Physical exam is unremarkable except for a palpable gallbladder.  U/S revealed normal size common bile duct and no masses, few gallstones present in an enlarged GB. CT scan unremarkable (no ampullary, pancreatic or ductal masses).  ERCP failed to delineate the common bile duct, although the pancreatic duct filled and is wnl.  CA19-9 and CEA levels are normal.  The patient is now scheduled for a percutaneous transhepatic cholongiogram.  How can chiropractic therapy help any?    Chiropractic is not disease care. It is not based on the reductionistic philosophy of "condition based care" [ala allopathy]. Chiropractic is a holistic approach to total body wellness, which emphasizes prevention by striving to remove nerve interference.    The liver, gall bladder, bile ducts, and pancreas are all innervated by sympathetic outflow from spinal nerves T5, T6, T7, T8 and T9. These spinal nerves synapse at the celiac ganglion, which then relays the neural impulse to the respected viscera.  If there was nerve interference to any or all of the spinal nerves at those levels, it could potentially decrease the function of their associated viscera.    I know this flies in the face of your philosophy. As a surgeon, your first impulse is to cut something out of the body. As a chiropractor, my first impulse is to restore proper biomechanical and neural integrity to the spine.

Translation: It can’t. Mad – Quintessence of the Loon http://www.ratbags.com/loon Bad – The Millenium Project    http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Sad – Full Canvas Jacket       http://www.ratbags.com/ranters

Response:

72 y/o male with elevated bilirubin (5.0) and Alk Phos (450) presenting with painless jaundice.  No past medical or surgical history.  Physical exam is unremarkable except for a palpable gallbladder.  U/S revealed normal size common bile duct and no masses, few gallstones present in an enlarged GB. CT scan unremarkable (no ampullary, pancreatic or ductal masses).  ERCP failed to delineate the common bile duct, although the pancreatic duct filled and is wnl.  CA19-9 and CEA levels are normal.  The patient is now scheduled for a percutaneous transhepatic cholongiogram.  How can chiropractic therapy help any?

Response:

72 y/o male with elevated bilirubin (5.0) and Alk Phos (450) presenting with painless jaundice.  No past medical or surgical history.  Physical exam is unremarkable except for a palpable gallbladder.  U/S revealed normal size common bile duct and no masses, few gallstones present in an enlarged GB. CT scan unremarkable (no ampullary, pancreatic or ductal masses).  ERCP failed to delineate the common bile duct, although the pancreatic duct filled and is wnl.  CA19-9 and CEA levels are normal.  The patient is now scheduled for a percutaneous transhepatic cholongiogram.  How can chiropractic therapy help any?

        Chiropractic is not disease care. It is not based on the reductionistic philosophy of "condition based care" [ala allopathy]. Chiropractic is a holistic approach to total body wellness, which emphasizes prevention by striving to remove nerve interference.         The liver, gall bladder, bile ducts, and pancreas are all innervated by sympathetic outflow from spinal nerves T5, T6, T7, T8 and T9. These spinal nerves synapse at the celiac ganglion, which then relays the neural impulse to the respected viscera.  If there was nerve interference to any or all of the spinal nerves at those levels, it could potentially decrease the function of their associated viscera.         I know this flies in the face of your philosophy. As a surgeon, your first impulse is to cut something out of the body. As a chiropractor, my first impulse is to restore proper biomechanical and neural integrity to the spine.

Response:

Question:

Leo, James F Balch, M.D. is a urologist and the author of the popular book, "Prescription for Nutritional Healing".  See pages 359-360 in which he discusses kidney stones.  He makes a number of recommendations for prevention of calcium oxalate stones including L-methionine 500 mg daily (an amino acid), Magnesium 500 mg daily, Vitamin B Complex especially B6, Zinc 50-80 mg daily.  He recommends reducing calcium intake. Concerning Calcium supplementation causing calcium oxalate kidney stones, see page 152 in Michael Murray’s book, Encyclopedia of Nutritional Supplements:  He states there that calcium citrate appears to bypass this justifiable concern.  The citrate reduces urinary saturation of calcium oxalate and calcium phosphate.  The use of noncitrate calcium may increase risk of developing calcium oxalate kidney stones. Citrate is a Krebs cycle intermediate.  Murray recommends calcium citrate and calcium in chelated form bound to Krebs Cycle amino acid intermediates. (Available from Enzymatic Therapy-Dr Murray is financially involved with this company)  He also recommends the Magnesium supplementation in chelated form also. Enzymatic has a combined magnesium calcium zinc chelated supplement product. Potassium-Magnesium Citrate has been shown effective in preventing recurrent kidney stones in a recent article published in the Journal of Urology by Ettinger et al: "Potassium-magnesium citrate is an effective prophylaxis against recurrent calcium oxalate nephrolithiasis".  J Urol, 158:2069-73,1997. Information about kidney stones and nephrostomy: http://www.medexpert.net/medinfo/nephrostomy.htm Information about IVP intravenous pyelogram: http://www.medexpert.net/medinfo/iv.htm You might discuss this topic with your cardiologist and ask him how much Magnesium supplementation he recommends.  Dr Murray recommends 500 mg per day  for a 200 pound male. Sincerely, Jeffrey Dach, M.D www.medexpert.net jd…@worldnet.att.net 888-571-2698 Disclaimer: The information sent in this package is not intended to diagnose or treat any existing disease or ailment. These comments and/or products have not been evaluated by the FDA and are for nutritional supplement use only. Please note that all contents of this message, including any advice, suggestions, and/or recommendations has NOT been generated as part of any professional evaluation. No patient has been examined prior to making these comments; no professional fee has been charged by or paid to myself. The reader is advised to discuss these comments with his/her personal physicians and to only  act upon the advice of his/her personal physician. Also note that concerning an answer which appears as an electronically posted question, I am NOT creating a physician — patient relationship.  Although identities will remain confidential as much as possible,  as I can not control  the media, I can not take responsibility for any breaches of confidentiality that may occur.  Finally, the material produced by myself may be reproduced for personal use, provided that appropriate credit is given; but this material may not be reprinted or reproduced in any format for any other purpose. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ——Original Message—– From: Leo Vogel <leovo…@island.net> To: Jeffrey Dach <jd…@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sunday, July 19, 1998 2:09 PM Subject: Re: arrhythmia >Thanks Jeffrey, >At the moment I am taking a calcium/magnesium 250mg supplement once a day. >Is that too small a dose? I am worried about taking too much calcium, since >I am also prone to kidney stones. Leo >>Leo, >>You might look into information about Magnesium supplementation: >>McLean Rm, Magnesium and its Therapeutic Uses., A review. Am J MEd, 96, >>63-76,1994. >>Brodsky, MA, Magnesium Therapy of new-onset atrial fibrillation Am J >Cardiol >>73, 1227-1229,1994. >>Sincerely, >>Jeffrey Dach, M.D >>www.medexpert.net >>jd…@worldnet.att.net >>888-571-2698 >>—–Original Message—– >>From: Leo <xxleovoge…@island.net> >>Newsgroups: sci.med.cardiology >>Date: Saturday, July 18, 1998 12:37 AM >>Subject: arrhythmia >>>I have posted a note concerning this condition before.  I have suffered >>from >>>recurrent ectoptic beats for the last 30 years or so. I am 58 and >>physically >>>fit, although I gave up long distance running a few months ago, after one >>>too many bouts of atrial fib. My cardiologist also queried >bradycardic(sp?) >>>atrial fibrilation, but the loop monitor ruled this out.  I was told that >>>the irregular heart beats are benign.  Nevertheless I continue to get >>>frequent bouts lasting for several hours. Whenever I get these ’bouts’, I >>>also get a tingly, burning, sensation down my left arm to my fingers. >>>Whenever I have mentioned this to the physicians, I am told that this is >>not >>>remarkable. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? My other question to >>this >>>newsgroup is this: are there any known techniques, diets, methods, >>whatever, >>>to stop the discomfort of the irregular heart beat, once it is happening? >>>Looking forward to reading your suggestions.

Response:

Is there any harm in drinking distilled water when your community water has very high mineral content? Thanks. Andy

Response:

The effective prevention of kidney stones was discovered about 30 years ago by two Harvard researchers. Unfortunately, things that get discovered tend to get forgotten and must be rediscovered many times before the benefits reach the practising doctor community. The following is my standard writeup for Internet posting on kidney stones. If you have had, and continue to have CALCIUM OXALATE kidney stones, then you should refer your urologist to two articles by Harvard investigators, Dr. Edwin L. Prien, Sr. and Dr. Stanley F. Gershoff that were published over twenty years ago. These investigators found that a daily supplement of magnesium oxide and pyridoxine (Vitamin B6) greatly inhibited the formation of calcium oxalate kidney stones. This was reported in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, May 1967 and the Journal of Urology, October 1974. The second article reported that 79 percent of the participants became completely stone free. Also, according to the authors, "A number of patients, having become free of stones, stopped treatment and began having stones again within a few weeks, only to become free of stones again when they resumed treatment." A summary of these two reports appeared in Prevention, March 1975. PLEASE NOTE: These supplements WILL NOT dissolve stones that have already formed although they may inhibit further growth.  (My opinion) An excellent book, recently published, for the layman is "The Kidney Stones Handbook" by Gail Golomb. She also maintains an informative web site at: http://www.ReadersNdex.COM/fourgeez/ Everyone who has ever had a kidney stone, regardless of the type, will benefit from visiting this web site. While we are on the subject of magnesium, my reading of available Internet articles make me believe that magnesium plays a very important but underated role in heart disease. Read the articles at www.vrp.com. Use a search engine to find additional articles. eldred In article <6oth2l$…@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>,   "Jeffrey Dach" <jd…@worldnet.att.net> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Leo, > James F Balch, M.D. is a urologist and the author of the popular book, > "Prescription for Nutritional Healing".  See pages 359-360 in which he > discusses kidney stones.  He makes a number of recommendations for > prevention of calcium oxalate stones including L-methionine 500 mg daily (an > amino acid), Magnesium 500 mg daily, Vitamin B Complex especially B6, Zinc > 50-80 mg daily.  He recommends reducing calcium intake. > Concerning Calcium supplementation causing calcium oxalate kidney stones, > see page 152 in Michael Murray’s book, Encyclopedia of Nutritional > Supplements:  He states there that calcium citrate appears to bypass this > justifiable concern.  The citrate reduces urinary saturation of calcium > oxalate and calcium phosphate.  The use of noncitrate calcium may increase > risk of developing calcium oxalate kidney stones. Citrate is a Krebs cycle > intermediate.  Murray recommends calcium citrate and calcium in chelated > form bound to Krebs Cycle amino acid intermediates. (Available from > Enzymatic Therapy-Dr Murray is financially involved with this company)  He > also recommends the Magnesium supplementation in chelated form also. > Enzymatic has a combined magnesium calcium zinc chelated supplement product. > Potassium-Magnesium Citrate has been shown effective in preventing recurrent > kidney stones in a recent article published in the Journal of Urology by > Ettinger et al: "Potassium-magnesium citrate is an effective prophylaxis > against recurrent calcium oxalate nephrolithiasis".  J Urol, > 158:2069-73,1997. > Information about kidney stones and nephrostomy: > http://www.medexpert.net/medinfo/nephrostomy.htm > Information about IVP intravenous pyelogram: > http://www.medexpert.net/medinfo/iv.htm > You might discuss this topic with your cardiologist and ask him how much > Magnesium supplementation he recommends.  Dr Murray recommends 500 mg per > day  for a 200 pound male. > Sincerely, > Jeffrey Dach, M.D > www.medexpert.net > jd…@worldnet.att.net > 888-571-2698 > Disclaimer: > The information sent in this package is not intended to diagnose or treat > any existing disease or ailment. These comments and/or products have not > been evaluated by the FDA and are for nutritional supplement use only. > Please note that all contents of this message, including any advice, > suggestions, and/or recommendations has NOT been generated as part of any > professional evaluation. No patient has been examined prior to making these > comments; no professional fee has been charged by or paid to myself. The > reader is advised to discuss these comments with his/her personal physicians > and to only  act upon the advice of his/her personal physician. Also note > that concerning an answer which appears as an electronically posted > question, I am NOT creating a physician — patient relationship.  Although > identities will remain confidential as much as possible,  as I can not > control  the media, I can not take responsibility for any breaches of > confidentiality that may occur.  Finally, the material produced by myself > may be reproduced for personal use, provided that appropriate credit is > given; but this material may not be reprinted or reproduced in any format > for any other purpose. > —–Original Message—– > From: Leo Vogel <leovo…@island.net> > To: Jeffrey Dach <jd…@worldnet.att.net> > Date: Sunday, July 19, 1998 2:09 PM > Subject: Re: arrhythmia > >Thanks Jeffrey, > >At the moment I am taking a calcium/magnesium 250mg supplement once a day. > >Is that too small a dose? I am worried about taking too much calcium, since > >I am also prone to kidney stones. Leo > >>Leo, > >>You might look into information about Magnesium supplementation: > >>McLean Rm, Magnesium and its Therapeutic Uses., A review. Am J MEd, 96, > >>63-76,1994. > >>Brodsky, MA, Magnesium Therapy of new-onset atrial fibrillation Am J > >Cardiol > >>73, 1227-1229,1994. > >>Sincerely, > >>Jeffrey Dach, M.D > >>www.medexpert.net > >>jd…@worldnet.att.net > >>888-571-2698 > >>—–Original Message—– > >>From: Leo <xxleovoge…@island.net> > >>Newsgroups: sci.med.cardiology > >>Date: Saturday, July 18, 1998 12:37 AM > >>Subject: arrhythmia > >>>I have posted a note concerning this condition before.  I have suffered > >>from > >>>recurrent ectoptic beats for the last 30 years or so. I am 58 and > >>physically > >>>fit, although I gave up long distance running a few months ago, after one > >>>too many bouts of atrial fib. My cardiologist also queried > >bradycardic(sp?) > >>>atrial fibrilation, but the loop monitor ruled this out.  I was told that > >>>the irregular heart beats are benign.  Nevertheless I continue to get > >>>frequent bouts lasting for several hours. Whenever I get these ’bouts’, I > >>>also get a tingly, burning, sensation down my left arm to my fingers. > >>>Whenever I have mentioned this to the physicians, I am told that this is > >>not > >>>remarkable. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? My other question to > >>this > >>>newsgroup is this: are there any known techniques, diets, methods, > >>whatever, > >>>to stop the discomfort of the irregular heart beat, once it is happening? > >>>Looking forward to reading your suggestions.

—–== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==—– http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum

Response:

You could eat a carrot and gain way more than a glass of water anyhow. The real information to re-search is a product called MSM. Since all the water supplies are now processed, the stuff is not in the water at all. On our web page is a MSM link for great research. I am sure there some great books in the health food stores too. Margie http://www.cyberramp.net/~mk95528/margie.htm The tail of the cat is stepped on, it is the other end that yells ! On Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:34:27 -0400, "A.T. Domonkos" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<domon…@erols.com> wrote: >Is there any harm in drinking distilled water when your community water has very >high mineral content? Thanks. >Andy

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: http://www.cyberramp.net/~mk95528/margie.htm : ===================================== This is a commercial website SELLING whatever it can to people going there for information.  In other words SPAM. — Carol …… " He used to be a Doctor but had no patients." *<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*

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